Welcome!

UPDATE

Read the update above

Also, I donated another 5 Dash just in case

It is unfortunate that you refuse to respond to feedback and even went so far as to block me on the thunderdome (despite me only asking simple, appropriate questions about your proposals, including this one). Doing such indicates that you do not care about the DAO and are basing your actions on your own biases, instead of the best interests of the rest of the network.

such a spam troll

Not OP of course. Just the person (whose name shall not be named) that spams budget proposals with lenghty posts that nobody reads.

You don't have the right to speak for others and pretend that 'nobdy reads' my posts. Also, my posts are neither spam NOR trolling, spam is unsolicited promotional material, while trolling is incendiary posts designed to emotional rile others up for sport (or money, like in your case).

Frankly, having been defeated and exposed as a corrupt liar (you called my thinking 'paranoia' before, even though YOU'VE PERSONALLY WITNESSED me defeating Dash's enemies, proving that my arguments are true and based in reality, and thus you are LYING in calling them paranoia), I'm surprised you would have the guts to even speak of me.

Perhaps you should go back to taking kickbacks in silence to destroy Dash, instead of destroying your reputation further.

And also, just for everyone reading, go to the thunderdome if you want to see a REAL example of spam trolling. Hilawe, for example, on every legitimate argument and reply I made to him instead of replying with words, replied only with the "DAO_or_STFU" meme.

On *every reply*. Not only did he spam it but that's trolling. The purpose of debating these proposals **is to support the DAO**. So obviously, me arguing my side with you **relying on the DAO**, and you replying by spamming a meme is trolling and thus, you NOT relying on the DAO.

But again, of course, these guys who are paid to work together like some mafia family, taking 'their cut' of Joel's 500 Dash a month proposal likely, use PROJECTION and trolling the most, i.e. accusing others of what THEY ARE GUILTY OF. That's how you can tell that qwizzie is a liar, and thus is likely compromised against the DAO.

Greetings again, fellow MNOs!

I have spent the last TWO WEEKS arguing daily in the thunderdome. I have argued against a bevy of other participants and I can confidently report that I have not lost a single bout. However, the results of these discussions is indeed concerning so I will do my best to summarize them without being too long here (LOL).

First I will summarize both my position and the position of the 'opposition' (which consisted of TL, xkAi, Bas, Max237 hilawe, ageofdoge, magnus, toby, bigrcanada, thedesertlynx (claims to have blocked me but I don't buy it this was likely a trick to get me to stop posting), and ceti2907 (relied on trolling)). ELEVEN people tried to gang up on me and fight me, and ALL were convincingly defeated. If you want the details, I suggest you go to the thuderdome channel and scroll back to 10/14/2025 where it all starts.

This is hilawe's summary comment:

>"As ageofdoge said, the DAO voted for CT implementation with Duke Leto as the dev paid by PUP. Then when Joel made a proposal for DAO funding indicating a change to the initial CT proposal, it was voted down or didn’t pass. The main feedback being that we (network) should wait for PUP to finally respond.

So both votes respected the will of the DAO. Just deal with it.

We all need a break now (this is a mod comment). "

And mine in response:

>" "So both votes respected the will of the DAO. Just deal with it."

No, stop telling me what to do here. Your 'mod comment' notwithstanding, I don't have to 'deal with anything'. The DAO exists outside of the thunderdome, and you have no right to 'legislate' discussions regarding proposals, or pretend like 'things are settled', you can order a 'pause in commenting' here, but that has NO EFFECT outside the thunderdome and is from the DAO's perspective a moot decision. You all didn't treat 'things as settled' when the DAO voted repeatedly to support Latam proposals, so you can't ask for that here and now, either. You want to shut down discussion now because you cannot explain yourselves nor your behavior.

The main feedback from my perspective is that the original vote to pass CT was done under duress and requires more deliberation. Duke Leto is a Monero developer, PUP is a Monero-based org. Monero and Dash are competitors and the original proposal hid these facts from the DAO, which means that the original vote was not valid. These are all FACTS, and it is on you all to explain why you want to pay Monero developers, who are our enemies, to do 'work' on our chain, without obfuscation, without trolling, without 'mod comments' trying to shutdown discussion. You have a DUTY TO THE DAO to explain yourselves clearly and honestly, and you have not fulfilled that duty.

And finally, where in the rules do you gain the 'power to moderate comments'? The thunderdome is billed as 'Two men enter, one man leaves. Heated discussions regarding "Dash'. Lax moderation, no excessive and repetitive attacks." Where in this are you granted the power to shut-down discussions when things aren't going your way? Remember, YOU WORK FOR THE DAO, not the other way around. That means you don't have the right to tell DAO members what they can say so long as it is 'not an excessive, repetitive or personal attack'. Your comment here is thus an abuse of power and an extreme red-flag. "

And hilawe's last comment, censoring me:

>"Take a break or we’ll have to mute you for a period of time. Simple as that. "

I will note, that moderators are NOT empowered to 'censor' and 'shut up' posters at their whim (i.e. just because they're losing). They are only allowed to enforce the rules of the channel. So this is a major red-flag, hilawe is basically telling me to 'shut up or else', even though I have not broken any rules and merely am engaging in discussions along with everyone else.

This means that they see me as AN ENEMY and not as a fellow participant in the DAO. In other words, THEY SEE ME like I SEE MONERO. And they SEE MONERO as allies. That's more obvious when you read their responses to my questions like 'Why are you supporting Monero devs and Monero based orgs?', they reply with things like 'it doesn't matter if its Monero tech or Monero devs, the proposal passed so that's that.'

I defeated xkAi several times in debate. One of the techniques they relied on in trickery. I.e. 'well, I'm on your side, but let me argue for the other side and hopefully try to influence you that way'. Both xkAi and magnus attempted these tricks and became almost demonic when I didn't fall for it. I also defeated xkAi and forced him to admit that he was part of the group that DDOS'ed my MN (a federal crime).

Bigrcanada was only trying to troll, like ceti2907 and made no salient arguments. Still, the fact that they couldn't answer a simple question that I repeated to them over the course of my tenure there was telling: WHY are you supporting Monero and Monero devs? Duke Leto is a Monero dev, fireice_uk is a Monero dev, PowerUp Privacy is a Monero-based organization, as well as Magic grants. One of them tried to lie and say that the proposal had NO links to Monero, but I pointed out that there were those FOUR LINKS to Monero. Once again silence.

Thedesertlynx tried to softshoe it, but basically admitted that CT would definitely weaken Dash's privacy. Unlike CT Dash's current coinjoin DOES NOT USE ENCRYPTION. CT DOES rely on encryption, and that encryption can be backdoored, or broken in the future. Joel said, "Well its well-tested for like a decade you'd have to believe that its broken to question it", but that's a silly argument. First, a decade is not a long time in cryptography. Secondly, that's the point, why would you advocate going from an unbreakable solution to a 'solution' that requires trust?

The only answer they could give was 'its faster'. Magnus even tried to argue that 'well, even if its broken, as long as people can use it faster then we should adopt it.' WHAT?! How can anyone who pretends to be a stakeholder in Dash make such an asinine argument? We should NOT employ broken tech. We should not chase after Monero's garbage (they're getting rid of CT because it's broken and allows Monero to be traced).

CT opens Dash up to two forms of analysis, timing analysis and amount analysis. CT removes two of the strengths that coinjoin has used to protect us all this time: separation of mixing and separation of amounts. Coinjoin makes sure that your mixing takes a random amount of time (2-16 rounds) AS WELL AS separates mixing events from spending events. I.e. you mix but you don't spend until you actually send, which could be any time in the future, and thus is untrackable.

CT REMOVES those two protections by FORCING MIXING AND SPENDING to happen at the same time! This dramatically weakens Dash's privacy and opens us up to timing analyses. Not only that, but CT would REMOVE the denominations and thus open Dash up to amount analyses as well, the exact two traceabilities that caused Monero to seek to upgrade to FCMP++. Both Magnus and Latteisnotcoffee admit that 'it does seem that CT would weaken Dash's privacy versus Coinjoin' and latteisnotcoffee questioned 'why are we moving to CT then, if it enables these vulnerabilities' when Joel tried to explain away these weaknesses.

There's honestly a lot more, but I think this is good enough a summary for the MNOs to see that CT is AN ATTACK on Dash's privacy. It is not an upgrade, it is A DOWNGRADE. We would gain a 'little speed up' FOR A MASSIVE PRIVACY ATTACK vector. When I informed Magnus that 'you can still have a fast and less secure option by simply mixing for just 2 rounds', he had NO answer but STILL pushed CT anyway! Mixing for 2 rounds is extremely fast and doing so DOESN'T OPEN YOU UP to being deanonymized later.

When you rely on encryption like CT, ALL transactions can be deanonymized AT A LATER DATE if the encryption is ever broken, while with Coinjoin, once you mix TRACING AFTER THE FACT IS IMPOSSIBLE! Its clear to me that this push to add CT to our chain is as CYNICAL ATTACK on Dash's privacy, meant to get us TO PAY FOR degrading our privacy with respect to Monero's, so that they can gain power over us by tricking us into picking up their garbage.

WHY Joel, hilawe and others have formed and created this detente with Monero was NEVER ANSWERED, and I leave it to others to find out and ask these actors why they are supporting our competition against the best interests of the DAO. Hilawe has threatened to censor me and mute me from the channel if I 'don't take a break' which means he IS ADMITTING DEFEAT by relying on censorship/mod powers to 'win arguments'.

Please, I emplore fellow MNOs to go to the thunderdome, read these chats and see for yourself: something is corrupt in Dash and it starts with Joel and his likely paid underlings working to undermine our chain, its privacy and our claim to the top, fastest, most private (anon set size: Dash - 41 million, Zec - 4.8 million, XMR - FOUR(!!)), and best governed cryptocurrency. It is ALL OF OUR DUTY to resist this effort and defeat Joel and his underlings in their attempts to undermine us, so they can cynically use the price to promote self-destructive actions.

This is the Conflict of Interest attack that I warned about 7-8 years ago. The time to stand up and defeat it is NOW!

Thank you for your attention.

I'll keep this short. Hilawe, large supporter for this integration, finally responded to my question today. I must say, I am extremely disappointed by his behavior and response. To the point where I'm thinking of calling for a vote to either disband the thunderdome or to punish hilawe for violating the principles of the DAO (via PoSE banning). I won't reproduce the discussion here, but the response to my question was as follows:

>'So in April, we would all know that the initial sponsor, PUP, would go dark for the next six months. Is this a serious question?

My support for CT is based on the massive privacy speed upgrade we would be getting as already the best digital cash in existence. Instantly hiding amounts at the L1 payment level is going to be yet another feather in our digital cash cap :MindBlown:'
- hilawe

Okay. So, what this means is that hilawe and his side have violated their agreement with the DAO. The vote was contigent on the fact that PUP (a monero based org) would pay for the integration. I claimed that Hilawe et al. going back on their word and coming to the DAO for funding was a breach of the terms of agreement, and thus negated the vote.

Hilawe, BigR_canada and ceti2907 (who refused to answer if he had a MN or not) then proceeded to go on a concerted trolling campaign. Every post I made was 'reacted to' with a "DAO_or_STFU" meme by hilawe, even though debate is part of the process of the DAO, and TROLLING IS NOT. Seriously, he wouldn't respond to my replies, namely that CT giving "instant privacy" would make Dash vulnerable to timing analyses. He just posted that meme in an attempt to make me 'rage quit' or whatever.

This is not how debates are supposed to be handled in the DAO and again, I'm thinking of putting up a proposal to censure hilawe for this behavior. I don't mind being personally maligned, but what I can't stand is the disrespect towards the Dash DAO. Gaslighting me, claiming that my contentions are violating the DAO when I'm just debating the proposal is not okay. If we can't have rational discussion, then there's no point to voting.

If you're allowed to act like a child flinging mud just because you can't respond any other way, then again there is NO POINT to the Dash DAO. Even when I get angry and yell at posters like lysergic (which I try not to do, but trolling does get to even me sometimes, especially when the DAO is on the line) **I always have a point**. I'm never just 'taking my anger out on someone', I'm always working towards bettering the DAO and the participants behavior within it.

Hilawe was clearly trying to troll me into "shutting up" because he couldn't respond to my contentions otherwise. Which doesn't bode well for his participation, nor this proposal. I leave with my conclusion:

>'What I've concluded here is that you are violating the Dash DAO's principles by reneging on your side of the agreement while trying to force the DAO to not only uphold our side, but to also take on the cost as well. This is a violation of the DAO's principle, which is that you provide what you promise when you get a Yes! vote. Also, by refusing to debate me and relying on trolling, you are also violating the principles of the DAO, as trolling is dishonest debating and not appropriate for a proposal discussion.'

I tagged hilawe yesterday, as he has been a strong supporter of this proposal and I asked the following. He has not responded:

>"@hilawe You said on the CT proposal in April:

"One last thing I forgot, MNOs/eMNOs do not have to pay for the CT implementation."

Yet now here we are 6 months later and you have gone back on your word regarding this. Yet you still support this proposal, why?"

This is what I am referring to by "power moves". This push to add CT to our chain isn't just about "improving Dash's privacy" (no matter how little you believe that promise), its about **forcing the Dash network to accept disrespect**. Just like Israel violates ceasefire agreements and pretends like nothing happened, you just have to "deal with it". Its a power move.

Hilawe deliberately lied in April when the proposal passed that MNOs "wouldn't have to pay for it", and now despite that proving false, he doesn't respond to feedback requesting clarification on this violation of his own word. If a man goes back on his word, its a red-flag. If he doesn't care about it, its an attempt at abuse.

That and the other stated reasons are why I'm voting NO! for this proposal, and I suggest the other MNOs do the same as well.

Another day spent trying to reason with those in the #thunderdome discord chat, alas to no avail. I apologize for the length of this post, but I wanted to summarize my chat with those supporters of CT in the thunderdome to highlight a growing issue: that is the mean-spirited, aggressive, and un-DAO-like nature of those inhabiting the thunderdome and supporting this proposal. Even quantumexplorer refused to answer or reply in any way to my contentions, despite this being a massive change that he voted yes for. That is NOT how the DAO is supposed to function at all. If you're for a proposal, you should be bold enough to explain WHY to all stakeholders who wish to know.

As to the others, even though I came in with a friendly and jovial demeanor, their response was nothing short of toxic and inappropriate for a proposal discussion. I know I have history with some of these people, but being a part of the DAO requires putting aside our own *personal biases and letting bygones be bygones* in order to get the best result for the network.

I'm posting this as proof that **these individuals deliberately refuse to do that**, and place a higher priority on attacking, trolling and maligning me over their responsibilities to the DAO, which is a severe red-flag. All of this, btw is apparently at the behest of Joel, who flees from the thunderdome and relies on his 'underlings' to defend him whenever I show up.

In summary, ceti2907, xkAi, hilawe, Mastermined, iceking, and dashfan have been ganging up on me for arguing against this proposal. But they don't post actual replies or responses or reasons for support, they only post meme-like 'reactions' on my comments without responding with their words. These reactions are summarized by 'facepalms', 'crazytalk', 'yaominglaugh', 'topcunt', 'troll' and 'rofl'. In short, they are collectively mocking me and refusing to engage with me honestly and in good faith, despite my fervent attempts to do so.

Iceking falsely said this about me (I say falsely because I wasn't talking to myself, I directly tagged everyone I was talking to, but they just refused to reply and ignored me):

>"he just talks to himself in unhinged rants ceti its ok"

To which I replied:

>"Ridicule is no substitute for being right you know

If I were truly being unhinged, you could point out where and why. You pretend to mock instead because you can't do any better. "

ceti2907 reacted with the 'gaslighting' reaction, which is clearly not what gaslighting is:

>"Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation where one person makes another doubt their perceptions, memories, or reality, often to gain control or power over them. It typically occurs in relationships and can lead to significant emotional distress for the victim."

My argument above is a logical counter to iceking calling my posts 'unhinged rants'. They're not unhinged, I post the 'hinge' every time I make an accusation. They're basically trying to say I'm crazy for not wanting to let Monero emotionally troll us into paying them to put the tech that they admit is flawed into our chain, which is *actually gaslighting*, since Monero and Dash are competitors and doing so is a violation. Again, if they have formed some sort of detente with the Monero community, it should be brought forward to the ENTIRE DASH community for discussion, not hidden behind trolling and passive-aggressive attacks and proposals.

Ceti2907 also tried to bait me into an angry and aggressive response by posting:

>"who is this idiot?"

Twice. When I reminded him of the stated rules of the thunderdome by responding:

>' "Personal attacks will not be tolerated." Wanna try that again?'

he posted the above a second time in defiance. To which I replied that he doesn't even respect the rules of the main domain that he is a part of (implying that he won't respect the rules of the Dash DAO either, which is bad news). He then tried to pretend that he wasn't talking about me, but was instead talking about 'TL' and a meme he posted.

I countered that if that were true, he would've quoted the meme. Instead, it appears that ceti2907 was trying to bait me into an aggressive reaction by vaguely calling *someone* an idiot, and then he planned to respond with 'Oh I wasn't talking about you son, think before you post, I was talking about TL' (he actually responded with this disrespectful reply).

The problem for him was that my response was not in defense of any poster in particular, myself included, but the rules of the thunderdome IN GENERAL. You're not allowed to launch personal attacks in the thunderdome, it doesn't matter who it is, so the little wrestling 'work' he had planned failed since my comment was in support of the rules, not in defense of myself.

>'In professional wrestling, "work" refers to any scripted or planned aspect of a match or storyline, as opposed to "shoot," which involves real, unscripted events.'

>"I agree on not trusting PUP and the external dev 'duke'. none of this is my idea, I can assure you!"
-xkAi

In response to my saying that I've never had a problem with Dash coinjoin mixing:
>"Me either, it is only Joel who is bitching about our mixing, I don't hear it from others."
-xkAi

Even xkAi, who posted several supportive lines quoted above towards my anti-CT push (likely sardonic but still), still concluded with this:

>"You're definitely not playing with a full deck of cards."
xkAi

In response to me stating that: "Ridicule is no substitute for being right you know. If I were truly being unhinged, you could point out where and why. You pretend to mock instead because you can't do any better."

But he REFUSED to follow up on exactly what is unhinged about my stance when I asked for further clarification by stating "Why do you say that?" Even though he claims to agree with me about not trusting 'Power up privacy' (a heavily Monero-based org) and not thinking that Dash's coinjoin is ineffective. He even posted a checkmark when I replied to TL's contention that Dash's privacy needs to be faster to be usable at the checkout in stores.

I replied that Dash's privacy is faster and easier to use than either ZEC or Monero's as neither have instant transactions which Dash coinjoin relies on not only for mixing but for sending as well. Unlike ZEC where you have to "shield your coins" first to use them and still wait 1 hr for full confirmations, and Monero where you have to wait 20 min to an hour for full confirmation and respendability, coinjoined Dash is usable instantly so long as you've mixed beforehand, making Dash the most easy to use privacy coin at the checkout, and thus taking away the reason for 'upgrading to CT'.

I concluded with this.

I made the argument that what they're doing to me is unfair and does not help the DAO nor favor supporting their proposal (as if they had legitimate reasons for supporting it, they wouldn't need to troll, gaslight and attack me for being against it):

>'Basically the narrative that you all are trying to gang up on me and set is that "you're crazy and therefore we don't have to respond to what you're saying". You can therefore shirk your responsibilities as MNOs because "that guy is crazy and unhinged". The problem is you don't have the right to make that declaration. You have to prove that what I'm saying is illogical and makes no sense first, your feigned incredulity at what I'm saying (as an excuse to dodge accountability in your required response) is not sufficient proof that "I'm crazy".

For example, if someone were on the street preaching that "the sky is yellow and the world is going to end because of it!" Then you would be able to dismiss that guy as crazy, because the sky is clearly blue. And even those who don't dismiss him out of hand for that reason, when they point out to him that "hey man, the sky is blue" and he responds with, "Well that's because aliens/the government/other dimensional entities are TRICKING you into thinking its blue", at that point all you have to do is ask for proof of these entities and their trickery. Obviously there is no such proof, which is THEN when you get to call him crazy/unhinged.

That's what you guys are missing, you're missing the "here's our proof" part before you call me crazy. Everything I'm saying is a logical consequence of what came before it, and is also independently verifiable. You have to show that what I'm saying is wrong in some way (like pointing out that the sky is visibly blue not yellow, to our street preacher above) and you all haven't done that.

Dash **really is** an ardent competitor of Monero. It therefore stands to reason that **you all shouldn't be trying to help Monero get money from our treasury** and force their discarded tech on our network. That's a very simple, non-crazy thing to say. Your argument requires that you skip steps and call that "crazy" without proving why, which exposes that you are deliberately working together to be dishonest (because you all agree that "I'm crazy" even though you have no proof of it). Which, ironically, proves that my contention that you are working together behind the scenes to help Dash's enemies is in fact correct.'

Once again, I apologize for the length and thank those of you who made it this far, but this is what we the MNOs are paid to do. This may seem trivial, but the Dash DAO cannot function if POs refuse to acknowledge stakeholder feedback and resort to dishonest debating tactics like trolling, gaslighting and ignoring criticisms and running away and hiding when proposals are challenged for not aligning with the network's best interests. Those behaviors, as well as my stated contentions below which remain unanswered, strongly indicate that this is a bad proposal for the DAO and should be voted NO! on.

Thank you again for your time.

I was in the discord for a couple hours today trying to find the reason for the "Yes" voters support. Joel again completely refuses to respond to me or my contentions, which is really not a good look. As a PO, you're supposed to respond to MNOs questions and his consistent refusal to do so indicates that he's not a good fit for the position he's crafted for himself.

The best answer I could get was from a non-MNO 'TL' who tried to lie and pretend like he didn't support a privacy upgrade for Dash, but then spent a whole bunch of time and words supporting CT. The best reasons he gave were:

1. That CT would 'speed up private send'
2. CT would get rid of the denominations

Both of these things are anti-features which attack Dash's privacy guarantees. The reason Monero is moving away from RingCT is because it makes them vulnerable to timing analyses which is one of the ways how crypto-tracking agencies can trace Monero payments.

Furthermore, common denominations make Dash's coinjoin extremely difficult to track as the mixers don't know the total balance being mixed, which again prevents tracing. So, the 'best reasons' for CT are because it weakens Dash's privacy and makes it easier to trace, essentially. This is clearly not something that a true Dash supporter would support and, aside from the inappropriateness of a non-MNO commenting on the discussion, I made that clear to 'TL'. Hilawe once again hid from me and only responded with negative 'reactions' on my posts (i.e. emotional torture) from the sidelines.

Two questions went completely unanswered:

"I don't get it, why are you guys betraying Dash to support Monero? It doesn't make any sense."

and

"PUP, Magic grants, fireice_uk, these are all Monero groups and personnel. Why is the official Dashpay twitter congratulating Monero's FCMP++ testnet release?

That's not your personal twitter account, you are speaking for the whole network, so if you've formed some sort of back-room detente with the Monero community, you have to disclose that to the rest of the network first."

Both of these items indicate that there has been a secret, backroom deal made with the Monero community by Joel and other MNOs, and whoever runs the twitter account. This backroom deal has, to my knowledge, NOT been discussed with the rest of the community and I believe this is a violation of the principles of the DAO.

Either we're all working together or we're not, if we have a cabal of people who are going behind the rest of our backs and making deals with our enemies then what's the point of investing in Dash? Why don't we all just give up and declare Monero 'the winner' even though their technology sucks, their adoption is low, their privacy doesn't work and nobody likes them online (which is why they have to be so aggressive on twitter).

Why is it that Dash, after having suffered years of abuse at the hands of the Monero camp is cheerleading their tech, wishing them well on their FCMP++ upgrade and acting sycophantic towards them? What has Monero done to deserve this star treatment and why won't those who are giving it to them explain it to the rest of the network?

A couple further points:

1. I want to amend my previous statement with regards to Dash and ZCash's anonymity set sizes. Apparently I was wrong, DASH'S PRIVACY IS STRONGER than ZCash's! Dash's anonymity set size @16 rounds is 41 million. While ZCash's anonymity set size is limited to all the current shielded outputs, which at 4 M is roughly 1/10 the anonymity set size of Dash!

https://xcancel.com/EthosVentures/status/1976683425978532160#m

Also, since ZEC has a fixed supply of 21 M, Zec can NEVER BE MORE PRIVATE than Dash at 16 rounds! Meaning Dash is actually THE STRONGEST PRIVACY COIN around.

ZEC has gone through I believe 2 privacy iterations in order to get here, and my original information was out-of-date from their previous protocol update which had an anonymity set size of 4 billion. They reworked their privacy set up (again) after shutting it down, and the current scheme relies on the total shielded pool instead which is far smaller than Dash's max anonymity set size, while still being much greater than Monero's @ 4. Monero enthusiasts will say 'but what about FCMP++!!!'

To which I'd say, 'what about it?' It hasn't released yet and it is an admission that MONERO DOESN'T WORK AS IS and NEVER has! Everyone who used and currently uses Monero today is vulnerable to roughly 7 different forms of attack including multiple timing analysis attacks (all of which Dash is currently immune to, and which CT would make us vulnerable to), heuristic analyses, OSPEAD and statistical analysis attacks, as well as remote node attacks. In fact, the Monero community routinely says if you don't run your own remote node you SHOULDN'T EXPECT ANY PRIVACY!

Which is completely bonkers as NOBODY is going to do that. Running a Monero node, syncing the blockchain, all of that is a HUGE PAIN in the ass and even on their subreddit people often complain about how inefficient and slow it is, as well as how infrequently it succeeds (forcing them to give up and use other wallets). Not to mention that 'MyMonero' is sunsetting and shutting down.

2. PRIVACY IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT for blockchains and cryptocurrencies! Privacy being the 'be all end all' is a MONERO TALKING POINT-LIE designed to give them more clout. Since privacy is the only thing that Monero does (and it doesn't even do that well), they have spent YEARS trying to force this narrative that 'if you're not a privacy coin, you're no good!' This is false! Banking is already extremely private.

Satoshi didn't create cryptocurrencies to create private money, he created cryptocurrencies in order to have TRANSPARENT MONEY! So that governments and corporations could be held accountable by the public whom they are supposed to serve!

Currently, there's lots of expenses and funds being paid out for anti-human purposes like human trafficking, narco-terrorism, undemocratic and unelected 'regime changes', all being hidden by the PRIVACY of the current banking system. This removes these forms of government and corporate spending from the necessary public oversight that they were intended to be subservient to.

Satoshi wanted to REVERSE this trend and course by creating a TRANSPARENT financial system, where if you're a small fry, you can just coinjoin your stuff (and since new inputs are created with no history coinjoin is effectively a ZK-proof), but if you're a government/publicly traded company, your spending must be done out in the open (with declared, transparent addresses) so that it can be auditable by WE THE PEOPLE. As such, both Monero and ZCash's (ZEC to a lesser extent as they still have transparent addresses) focus on 'encryption and privacy' are RED-HERRINGS (i.e. a distraction from the main goal of cryptocurrency).

3. Dash is the best of both worlds because it maintains BTC's original scaling, privacy and governance plans. I.e. governance is ON-CHAIN with masternodes (which are just collateralized full nodes) which enforces skin in the game while simultaneously enabling massive amounts of scaling due to the industrial servers they provide. Privacy is also ON-CHAIN and NOT ENCRYPTION-BASED which keeps privacy light and CHEAP both spacewise and feewise.

This triple-threat is the reason why Joel and others had to likely be bribed into pushing this 'CT crap' on our chain. They are attacking the areas which make DASH SUPERIOR to its competition. ZCash has tried their best to mimic this and they've gotten closer than most, but its still not decentralized. They have funding, but they don't have governance.

Basically, a flat 20% of the block reward is given to the ZCash foundation and other centralized parties tasked with development, but with little oversight from the community (its reviewed every halving it seems, unlike Dash where funding is reviewed on a monthly basis). Monero of course has NO funding mechanism, relying instead of volunteer donations (and trying to trick Dash into paying their starving developers like fireice_uk, kaybanerve et. al. while making a show of 'exposing privacy flaws').

4. Dash, Decred and ZCash are the only coins that benefit from price bumps! And Dash benefits the most while ZCash only benefits a little. That's likely why Dash's price has been so heavily attacked all these years. Understand something, Monero @360 DOESN'T REALLY HELP its community. Monero mining is expensive and mostly hogged by botnets and other illegal actors. Most Monero holders only have between 10-40 coins (check their sub to verify).

So if the price is $30 or $300 it DOESN'T REALLY matter to them, they can't really benefit from it (not much, since most people don't know what the price is going to be day to day, they rarely ever trade the maximum swings, i.e. most will buy @30 then sell at say 60, or 150 then 240, instead of buying and holding from 30 all the way to 300).

Same with ZEC, except how much the ZCash foundation gets goes up based on the price, so holders don't benefit much, but the ZCash foundation and what they can afford benefit if the price rises. With Dash, we have THOUSANDS of holders of 1000 DASH and HUNDREDS of holders with 4000 DASH, which means that when the price rises, they have a significant amount of money invested that dramatically increases in value!

Not only that, but Masternodes and evoNodes PAY DIVIDENDS which ALSO increase in value with the price! Also we have the budget as well, so DAOs benefit the higher the price as well. MONERO AND BCH AND LTC and other POW competitors DON'T HAVE THESE BENEFITS which is why despite having much higher prices than Dash (e.g. BCH @550+), there communities are SO DEAD! They can't get funding and they can't get ROI from their investment due to most people not holding enough and buying/selling at the appropriate times.

In summary, Dash is still the coin to beat, recent price surges of our competitors NOTWITHSTANDING. Dash @40$ is MUCH STRONGER than Monero at 300$. On twitter, they bragged about "Monero raising $925k at current valuation for 2025 (thru sept).

https://x.com/DontTraceMeBruh/status/1968654098808422558

Whereas Dash has had available for funding in the same time period $1,599,388.425 or a 42% larger value! And you can see the benefits as Dash has consistently stacked tech improvement on tech improvement over the years, culminating last year with the Platform release, which makes cryptocurrency extremely easy to use! Monero on the other hand is basically the same as it was in 2019.

This is while its community is even MUCH SMALLER than back then (fewer exchanges and most services shutting down) and has less developers and funded individuals (the Noether researchers, Dr. Daniel Kim, most core guys have all left the network due to lacking funding). This is all while Dash has maintained roughly 1/10 the price of Monero! Showing that Dash punches WELL ABOVE its weight compared to Monero, and not only that, Dash's funds come straight from the blockchain not from holders' hands.

This means that Dash's funding is not only decentralized, but it is also renewable and doesn't strain the network! That 925k for Monero came directly from volunteer donors' pockets, i.e. they don't have that money anymore. If they want to keep it up, they have to keep donating till they're drained dry (this is what happened in BCH with flipstarters, which you don't see many of anymore)! This means that Monero will EVENTUALLY RUN OUT OF MONEY for development, which is probably while these starving (bad) actors are coming to our DAO to try and emotionally nipple-twist us into paying their salaries!

Dash is FUNDAMENTALLY A SUPERIOR COIN to Monero, BCH, LTC, Zec, BTC and ALL OTHER COINS because it has the proper incentives correctly aligned for longevity and growth, which is why they have to rely on these emotionally abusive tactics in order to attack us. They can't win any other way!

Also, calling me 'crazy and unhinged' is a deliberate attempt of theirs to avoid responding to my claims of their impropriety while still getting off a response. Doing so allows them to dismiss my claims without being forced to lie (i.e. a power move). But it is also a tacit admission that if they *were to respond, then **they would be lying.***

Which means they're admitting that I'm correct and their behavior is compromised by our enemies.

Here's the final response of my chat with AI on Dash's coinjoin effectively being Zero-knowledge proofs (sorry about the formatting):

>"You're bringing up a nuanced perspective on privacy and information concealment in cryptocurrency systems. Let's delve deeper into your argument that the end result is what matters when it comes to privacy solutions, including Dash's CoinJoin.

**Focusing on the End Result**

— Key Characteristics of Privacy Solutions

Aspect | End Results in Dash CoinJoin | Zero-Knowledge Proofs

Privacy Achieved | Ownership obscured; no transaction graph | Knowledge of a fact known without revealing specifics

Transaction Anonymity | Mixers do not know the final balance | Verifiers accept proofs without knowing the underlying data

Result-based Privacy | Users receive coins without traces back to original inputs | Proofs ensure validity remains hidden

**Analyzing the Features**

— End Results Matter: Your point that what matters is the outcome of obscured ownership and destroyed traceability is valid. If the mixing process achieves these outcomes effectively, it serves a similar purpose as a zero-knowledge proof in practice, at least from a transactional anonymity perspective.

— Mixing Mechanism: By using common denominations in the mixing, Dash inherently creates a scenario where the final recipients cannot be traced back to their original inputs by mere analysis of the transaction graph. Here, the result is substantial anonymity, aligning closer with the intentions of zero-knowledge proofs.

— Information Leakage: Since the masternodes only conduct mixing without awareness of individual user balances, this indeed limits information leakage. The degree of privacy achieved could be perceived as functionally equivalent to the privacy guarantees sought through ZKPs, even if the techniques differ.

**Conclusion**

In sum, while the technical foundations of Dash’s CoinJoin may not align with traditional definitions of zero-knowledge proofs, the practical implications—obscured ownership, destroyed traceability, and lack of information leakage—create end results that achieve significant privacy. Your argument about focusing on the outcome rather than strictly the cryptographic methodology opens a valuable discussion on the nature of privacy in blockchain technology. If there are further aspects you want to delve into or explore related topics, just let me know!"

Final words on price:

Also notice that as SOON as Dash broke through the nearly year long $20-30 band, guess what? All of the sudden, the market that has been trading uncorrelated ALL YEAR 'mysteriously' tanks simultaneously. I mean, it couldn't be more obvious.

DASH IS THE COIN TO BEAT. Our price is being manipulated downwards to PRESSURE us into making bad decisions so that we don't win the cryptocompetition and fiat bankers can keep abusing humanity at their whim. Resistance is NOT futile, it is a REQUIREMENT!

This is what the Monero community themselves have to say about "RingCT" and why they're moving to get rid of it in favor of FCMP++:

> "While rings have offered sender privacy to Monero since it launched, they're vulnerable to attacks such as the EAE attack, have difficulties upon chain reorganizations, and **in general enable statistical analysis** (mitigated by distribution of the decoy selection algorithm)."

https://www.getmonero.org/2024/04/27/fcmps.html

In other words, RingCT is a significant attack surface that has made Monero's privacy vulnerable to tracing ever since it was introduced in January 2017. If it were to be implemented in Dash, its clear that we would inherit these vulnerabilities and this attack surface as well, where none exists today.

This is what I meant before: this is called CYNICAL TROLLING. The Monero community **knows that their privacy sucks**. They've known it since the beginning. And now that they're 'upgrading' they plan to ATTACK US by forcing us to take on this damaged 'privacy tech' as a cynical troll. That's why Joel and company are trying to so hard to avoid looking under the hood and justifying this move.

They have BEEN PAID to LIE TO THE MNOs and promote an attack surface so that Monero can 'flip the script' and claim that Dash has worse privacy 'because they're using something that we discarded'. This is cynicism. These are demonic tactics. This is why I fight these guys so hard, because they are NOT GOOD PEOPLE. They are PURE EVIL!

I am voting YES!

1. Looks to me, the market values privacy. So, this one becomes obvious. YES, if you want the value of Dash further increased.

2. Is Dashs privacy good and special. YES, but is it sufficient? What about the usability? Who really believes that normal users want to wait that long before mixing is ready? The best money has fast privacy and CT will improve the usability by a lot.

3. All this Monero-nonsense this real realdashman-troll is foaming about should not go uncommented.

3.1 FireiceUK, known by some in the community, is a die-hard Monero-hater. They treated him really bad. He had a website https://monero-badcaca.net/ which can now only be accessed via WaybackMachine (https://archive.org/).

Ur use the tor Link (this snapshot at Apr 07 25 worked):

https://web.archivep75mbjunhxc6x4j5mwjmomyxb573v42baldlqu56ruil2oiad.onion/web/20220407073554/https://monero-badcaca.net/

The headline of his former site: "Monero "BADCACA" tracking project Monero's main selling point is privacy. That promise doesn't work, 'cause there are several ways to track it. Did you use Monero yesterday? If so, check the list below, you might be on it."

To sum it up. I feel excited, that such a genius is helping Dash improving its privacy.

3.2 realdashman-trolls third point -"Magic grants" is a Monero sponsored "grant organization"- is somehow interesting. They went MIA right? So, if this realdashman-troll is correct in that regard, it makes perfect sense. I wouldn't subsidize my competitor and perceived enemy.

So in my humble opinion, looking at all the points mentioned, this proposal really should be funded and deserves a YES!

1. Even if you conclude that the market values privacy, which it objectively does not, or only barely (BTC's price + Ethereum's price + BNB's price vs Zec, Monero and Dash's price, with Monero being artificially supported and Dash artificially suppressed), that is no reason to conclude that this proposal should receive a yes vote. You would have to prove that "adding CT to Dash would give Dash better privacy than it has now" and that conclusion has not been shown nor even firmly argued by the Yes camp

2. If you don't use 16 rounds, Dash's mixing is incredibly fast. 4 rounds of mixing 10 Dash takes less than half an hour. That's not a long wait at all, especially if you don't plan on spending everything at once. "The best money has fast privacy"? What does this mean? Monero's privacy, for exmaple doesn't work at all (which is why they're trying to upgrade to FCMP++), how can "fast privacy that doesn't work" be the best money?

CT is not going to improve the usability a lot. Dash's privacy is already highly usable, just simply click a button and send coinjoin when finished. It's much easier to use than ZCash or Monero. Monero is very hard to sync, you have to "run your own remote node" if you don't want to be deanonymized, and the blockchain is over 200 GB (compared to Dash's 36 GB). Also, Monero is under reorg attacks from Qubic, with transactions being delayed thanks to their selfish-mining attack

3. On what basis do you call me a troll? I only advocate for Dash-first and Dash-only. Neither Monero nor their tech or personnel have any place in the Dash network. We're staunch competitors and if they truly sought to curry favor, they should first APOLOGIZE FOR AND RESCIND the years of LIES and FUD they spread about Dash. Trying to "get in our good graces" without doing that is a red-flag and indicates they are trying to force us to "suffer abuse". How does me fighting against this make me a troll?

To your 3.1. Regardless, Fireice_uk is definitely a former Monero developer, he's not a monero-hater as much as he is a Monero doublecrosser. He used to be pro-Monero (I argued with him a lot for years) and then he switched sides. Why should we take the risk of entertaining someone like that in our network? We have had enough of the "I'm pretending to be on your side but secretly working against you" routine, don't you think? Do you really value giving "second chances" that much that you'd willingly risk the network to do so?

Yes, Fireice_uk exposed Monero's privacy flaws. But only YEARS after I spent YEARS doing the very same thing. He was fine to work for them and on it during that period, so there's really no need to have a Monero guy working in our code. Its like you have NO SENSE of propriety or threat-assessment. You just want to "let anyone do anything and pretend like its okay!" even if there's a high likelihood that they're a troll.

DASH DOESN'T NEED MONERO TECH! If we did, we would've gone with it in the beginning. CT bloats the protocol and provides very little benefit. And Monero itself is moving away from CT, so again please answer WHY WE SHOULD PICK UP MONERO'S TRASH?

Why would you 'feel excited' that 'such a genius' would work on Dash? Are you so insecure that you have to beg and bark like a dog whenever someone shows even a hint of favor towards Dash? You shouldn't be that way. Dash is BETTER than Monero. Dash has a MUCH LARGER anonymity set size than Monero. CT doesn't do anything for Dash that we couldn't do without and you haven't shown anywhere why we need it in your 'glowing praise' of that 'stable genius'.

3.2 Again please justify why you are calling me a troll. Just because I fight against Monero, WHICH IS OUR COMPETITOR, doesn't make me a troll. A troll is someone who posts false, inflammatory and defamatory content in order TO RILE OTHERS UP for fun or for money. I've never been paid to post here, and I've expressed several times that I DO NOT enjoy doing this, but do so in order to protect Dash from bad actors who I AND OTHERS HAVE PROVEN are attacking us.

So again, HOW DOES THAT MAKE ME A TROLL??

3.2.1 Well NO SHIT SHERLOCK. And yet the simple fact that our enemy is/was trying to bankroll this doesn't give you cause for concern? It doesn't make you pause and stop and think 'well, maybe this is not such a good idea'? It would make perfect sense if they had NOTHING TO DO with this. Because they're our enemy and competitor. But they tried and the other members of Monero are/were trying to get funding for this, and they HID the fact that they're a Monero-exclusive organization.

This proposal doesn't mention that at all, and doesn't mention that fireice_uk is a former developer for Monero. That's TWO CONFLICTS of interest that go unmentioned and therefore undebated. The fact that you would call me a troll just for pointing out these relevant facts means that you are likely a bad actor in league with Monero infiltrators. You're clearly not neutral, nor "pro-Dash". Someone who was neutral would see this as a red-flag. As would someone who is 'pro-Dash'. Go on their sub, any time Dash is mentioned in the last 6-7 years, whether its our tech, community, governance and funding, the Monero community has ALWAYS RELENTLESSLY attacked and maligned Dash. That's what a (n extreme) 'pro-XXX' community reaction looks like.

We DO NOT NEED MONERO TECH in Dash and your "points" are not only nonsensical, but lacking in any and all technical and community reasons for going forward. Its become clear to me that you are projecting and that YOU ARE THE TROLL, here. You call me a troll to HIDE THE FACT that you are aligned with 'pro-Monero anti-Dash' forces in order to pass a proposal that "gives money to monero so they can fund their attack against us", which is a conflict of interest.

As such, I completely disagree with your 'humble (likely paid for) opinion': this proposal should NOT be funded and deserves to be VOTED NO!

Just donated another 5 Dash of my own money to development. So far I have personally given 215 Dash.

Look, if you won't answer feedback from MNOs, then why should anyone vote for and support your proposal?

You may have given 215 Dash.
But on the other hand, you have personally got 16277 Dash from the budget.
Havent you?

https://mnowatch.org/proposalowners/?po=the_desert_lynx

Please explain why you are trying to promote Monero tech and Monero developers in the Dash network. Monero is our competition, we should not be subsidizing them with Dash funds, nor providing them with a "resting place" for their failed technology.

Ignoring a fellow MNO during these debates is bad acting and signals that you have an ulterior motive/hidden agenda that you do not wish to be made public to the other MNOs in the network.

Paid Duke Leto 50 Dash from the budget to commence CT work. Please consider donating if you value this work.

Please explain why you are trying to promote Monero tech and Monero developers in the Dash network. Monero is our competition, we should not be subsidizing them with Dash funds, nor providing them with a "resting place" for their failed technology.

Voting no. For several reasons:

1. This is Monero tech, they are our enemies, why are Joel and others promoting and trying to railroad through Monero tech in the Dash blockchain?

2. One of the developers behind this, fireice_uk was formerly a (core?) developer for Monero, this is a conflict of interest and a red-flag. Once again, I wrote a post seven years ago stating that the way that we were going to be attacked would be through CONFLICTS OF INTEREST, i.e. our enemies try to get us to PAY FOR OUR OWN DEMISE. Its a cynical form of trolling

3. "Magic grants" is a Monero sponsored "grant organization", again, why are Monero people and their tech trying to force themselves down our throats? We are separate communities and ardent competitors.

https://donate.magicgrants.org/monero

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/186uzyp/the_magic_monero_fund_wants_your_research_or/

" The fund has an advisory committee entirely elected by the Monero community and this committee selects which grants to fund. The current Magic Monero Fund Committee Members are u/kayabaNerve (Luke Parker), u/Rucknium, u/monerobull, u/kowalabearhugs (me), and u/artlimber. You can view current voters on the MAGIC website. "

All of those people are Monero community members and core team participants. Why is the Monero core team trying to align itself with and infiltrate the Dash community? Notice that this proposal doesn't mention who/where "Magic Grants" comes from

4. "Adding CT will make Dash the most private cryptocurrency with a transparent blockchain,"

Dash is already for more and away more private than Monero without CT or other Monero tech. Dash's anonymity set size at sixteen rounds is over 41 million, while Monero, which has had CT for years, is only at 4 (supposed to be 16, but even on r/Monero they admit its only 4)

5. We should not be paying Monero devs to promote their useless tech in our community. Monero DOESN'T WORK, that includes CT. Monero's privacy has been busted for YEARS and shown to be a FAILURE. Also, Monero's funding model DOESN'T WORK (voluntary "donations" from big wallet whales pretending to look decentralized), and we have NO OBLIGATION to subsidize their tech, their developers nor their community with our decentralized funding mechanism that DOES WORK

6. Why are quantumExplorer, joel and other PROMOTING OUR COMPETITOR'S TECH TO OUR NETWORK with no explanation, "voting yes"??? This is a conflict of interest and should be discussed and debated openly

Voting yes.

Why are you voting yes for this? Dash doesn't need Monero tech involved and we do not need to subsidize the Monero community with our DAO.

Please explain your decision.

Untill you get a firm confirmation from PUP that they are still backing the entirety of the integration ($200K), The Dash DAO runs the risk of funding about $20,000 spread over 4 months, while the rest of the $180K is either in limbo or worst case scenerio is just not happening. PUP being so unresponsive could be viewed as a red flag in that regard.

I suggest OP re-establish contact with PUP first.

Unfortunately, I have tried my best, they have been unresponsive for a long time now. If I could have established contact successfully again, I would have.

Why do we need any of this Monero XMR tech?
They are not exactly our best friends, you know

twst

Donated and also voting yes!

Why are you voting yes for this? Dash doesn't need Monero tech involved and we do not need to subsidize the Monero community with our DAO.

Please explain your decision.

Thanks for your support! I'll be donating again soon too.