Proposal “VCO-KUVACASH-VOTE“ (Closed)Back

Title:VCO - Vote Controlled Offering: Kuvacash MNO consultation
Owner:kuvateam
One-time payment: 5 DASH (871 USD)
Completed payments: 1 totaling in 5 DASH (0 month remaining)
Payment start/end: 2018-04-18 / 2018-05-18 (added on 2018-04-20)
Votes: 759 Yes / 168 No / 82 Abstain

Proposal description

Kuvacash Vote Controlled Offering (VCO) - MNO Vote on Utility Note distribution

****IMPORTANT NOTE - THIS IS NOT THE KUVACASH BASE PROPOSAL 002 VOTE, IT IS A VOTE FOR MNO's TO DECIDE ON WHETHER TO DISTRIBUTE UTILITY NOTES VIA THE VCO (VOTE CONTROLLED OFFERING)*****

The current Kuvacash Base Funding 002 Proposal is here: https://www.dashcentral.org/p/KuvacashBaseFunding002 so please ensure you have cast your votes.

Dear MNO's and Dash supporters,
There has been considerable discussion and debate on Dash Forum, Dash Nation, Dash Central proposals, Twitter and various other channels about the Kuvacash VCO. We have completed development the VCO and Utility Note framework so that Kuvacash can run in perpetuity as a 'digital business' without any person owning equity in it. For example, all Kuvacash founders and executives are incentivised with Utility Notes alone and have no equity. We use Utility Notes to reward ALL interested parties who are helping us to grow Kuvacash and land Dash as a high-usage mainstream currency over as much of Africa as we can, from our agents and customers through to to strategic partners and suppliers.

The VCO is therefore a way to enable distribution of Utility Notes to MNO's as critical interested parties who took the time to engage and vote on our proposal.

The Kuvacash Base Funding Proposal 002 description is worth reading, as it contains as much information about Utility Notes ('Notes' or UN's) and the Vote Controlled Offering (VCO) process as we can provide for now, for reasons that span legal, jurisdictional and regulatory domains. We ask that you bear with us as this is a very greenfields process that nobody has ever done before and for which we must take extreme care with. The livelihood and long-term sustainability of the project depends on it.

********************

ABOUT THE VCO
The VCO will allow MNO's who voted YES, NO or ABSTAIN on the 2017 Kuvacash proposal between Sept-Nov (while voting was active) to claim the Kuvacash's 'Utility Notes' via an Ethereum smart contract and web interface. The interface requires MNO's to run Metamask (an Ethereum wallet) and sign their Ethereum account address with their Masternode's private key (collateral key), then submit the result. When this is done, a transaction is generated so that the Utility Notes can be claimed and sent to that account address.

The VCO is a new initiative that builds on the power of DGBB - one that adds another dimension to the Dash ecosystem. We are firm believers that the DGBB and DAO is a key innovation of Dash; arguably Dash is the ONLY functioning DAO in existence, and like any great technology platform it allows for great ideas and innovation built top of it.

The VCO is an entirely voluntary claim for MNO's - clearly MNO's should ONLY continue to vote on funding projects they believe will succeed on their merits.

Incentives to vote
The Kuvacash team have made clear from the very beginning; ANY MNO who engaged at all in the voting process and cast a vote on the Kuvacash proposal - and by this we mean they voted YES, NO, or ABSTAIN in the original Kuvacash proposal from Sept-Nov 2017, across ANY of the 3 months, is eligible to claim Utility Notes and this is regardless of what they voted. The team waited until it was clear that the project had full support and was funded (i.e. passed 10% YES vote threshold on the third and final month of their funding, with some days left before voting closed) before the announcement regarding the VCO was made. Time was given for MNO's to switch their vote on the project on the basis of this new information. There were however no objections to this at the time and everyone we spoke with, including several MNO's, seemed very positive about our approach. MNOs felt that this kind of initiative was something that needed to happen on DGBB - no other project was making an offer like the VCO to involve MNO's in it, and being done in a way that was not about incentivising YES votes, but driving engagement on DGBB.

There is a lot of innovation in Kuvacash's business and governance structure and this is ongoing. This includes the VCO and Utility Note infrastructure - we have many exciting things to share with the network in the coming months related to our research and work setting up Kuvacash as a 'digital business' - indeed Dash and Kuvacash are making history in this respect. At some point, if Dash/Evolution supports it and there is wide ecosystem adoption, we retain the right to switch Utility Notes from an Ethereum ERC-20 class token via a swap to something that Dash might support natively - we encourage this innovation to occur and would like to be a key driver for its technical requirements.

*********************

THE VCO VOTE
The team feels that it is appropriate to ensure that we return to the DGBB and let Masternode owners vote as to whether we continue to go forward with the VCO at this stage.

The VCO whitelist is live now at https://vco.kuvacash.com but we feel that in the spirit of the DAO, a final say for this initiative from MNO's is needed. We will therefore only proceed with the Kuvacash VCO distribution if this consultative proposal vote passes a 10% threshold YES vote.

It is important to note; this vote does not determine whether Kuvacash uses Utility Notes to build itself as a digital business - we are already doing this and will continue on this path. This vote is to determine at this stage, whether or not MNO's want Kuvacash to distribute a proportion of the Utility Notes to MNO's that voted YES, NO or ABSTAIN on the original Dash Kuvacash 2017 proposal.

******************

Thanks for reading and please discuss below, NOTE: it is important to cast your votes on both this proposal (the VCO consultation), and also the Kuvacash Base Funding 002 proposal (next-phase of funding for Kuvacash). The link to the Kuvacash Base Funding Proposal is below:

https://www.dashcentral.org/p/KuvacashBaseFunding002

We look forward to seeing the discussion and the outcome of this vote by the DAO, and we pledge to be bound by it.

Thank you for your support,

The Kuvacash Team
James - Drako - Steve

Show full description ...

Discussion: Should we fund this proposal?

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3 points,1 year ago
Why not a VCO for all coin holders that register coins like Eos is doing.
Reply
3 points,1 year ago
This is a new method of sharing in the success of a company that Dash is supporting. It allows us to own a piece of the company. Please vote yes so we can finish the experiment. As a scientist, there is nothing worse than throwing away data by not doing the experiment. There is very good up-side potential if this works. And in the event we decide it is not encouraging more participation by the community, it's easy enough to pull the plug.

There has been lots of complaints about low Masternode participation. Here we have an actual creative attempt to improve Masternode participation. Who else even has expressed an idea about how to do this, much less implemented it at no cost to the community?

Please follow through and do the experiment. Especially since the cost and risk is almost nothing.

solarguy
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
I read the full proposal but still have no clue what a Utility Note or a DGBB is.

But I don't like the sound of any of this. The Dash DAO is owned equally by all MNOs, old and new and handing out some sketchy sounding tokens to a specific subset of MNOs sounds very bad.

Voting no.
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
The DAO’s funding is also held up by coin holders as well ? only MNOs shouldn’t get special rights to receive more incentives! Disperse this equally to all Coin holders of Dash and I’d still support Dash. But in a way this makes me want to sell because masternodes are coming before the coin holders.
Reply
4 points,1 year ago
"I don't understand this, voting no." This is completely irresponsible. If you don't understand something, vote "abstain." That's what it's there for. So sick of other MNOs not taking the time to try to understand what they're voting on.
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
Hi Masternube,
DGBB is Dash Governance By Blockchain (see https://docs.dash.org/en/latest/governance.html#understanding-dash-governance ) and the Utility Notes is how we have digitised our entire business, with considerable legal effort and structuring.

If you would like MNO’s who voted on the original Kuvacash proposal to have the exact same incentives that the founders, executive and all future stakeholders have (we don’t actually have equity in the business) then please reconsider your vote.

The subset of MNO’s is the active ones that voted on our original Kuvacash funding proposal in 2017, and you can have voted YES, NO or ABSTAIN and will still be eligible to claim the Notes. Let me know if you do have any other questions though!

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
> If you would like MNO’s who voted on the original Kuvacash proposal to have the exact same incentives that the founders, executive and all future stakeholders

What are those incentives? Don't be vague.

> The subset of MNO’s is the active ones that voted on our original Kuvacash funding proposal in 2017, and you can have voted YES, NO or ABSTAIN and will still be eligible to claim the Notes.

What about new MNOs that weren't around at the time?
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
Hi Masternube,
We’ve tried to be as precise as we can, save percentages of allocation. All will be clear and fair when we have finished with claims.

In the same way new MNO’s don’t get retrospective miner rewards, the VCO is a ‘had to be there and voted’ allocation. This was stated at the time of the announcement back in Nov 2017, which we syndicated everywhere we could. Trying to make this as fair as possible on everyone. Note that we are the only proposal doing a VCO or giving anything back to MNO’s - as far as that is concerned it’s an innovation and an experiment that we will develop further if MNO’s like it.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
0 points,1 year ago
I still have no clue what this VCO is about as you seem to refuse to explain what what a Utility Note is. But if this was decided back in November, why are we voting on it now?

And I'm not sure what's the point of giving back to MNOs. The point of the treasury is to improve the Dash network and ecosystem, not to give it to the MNOs. They already get paid out from the block rewards directly. Instead of giving to the MNOs why not ask less money or use left over money for further improvements, or just burn it?
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
See also stillcantstop/solarguy’s response below also, regarding on whether MNO’s should get additional incentives. And I’m always good to speak if you have any other comments or concerns you would like to discuss, just PM me (Max Yoga on DN).

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
Hi Masternube,
On our Base funding proposal 002 ( https://www.dashcentral.org/p/KuvacashBaseFunding002 ) there is a more complete explanation of the Utility Notes, as much as we can say for now. Please also look at other comments on this thread, there are a few related questions here.

The VCO is a Vote Controlled Offering, with this vote, we are ensuring that MNO’s are ok with us proceeding with the distribution. The reason for this is because there has been enough debate regarding the VCO since November and we’d like to put the decision to the network so that we have a full 10% mandate as per DGBB. On this basis we will either move forward with it or put it to bed. Kuvacash may consult with MNO’s in a similar way for other kinds of decisions as in future well, since we respect that they are the key stakeholders in Dash, and are responsible for approving any funding that we apply for.

I am trying to understand what it is you’re suggesting about burning money. We’re not intending to burn anything, nor does the distribution result in us requiring more or less funding. This is one of the perks of being a Masternode - on occasion you might get a VCO distribution :)

I anticipate that soon we won’t be the only VCO on Proposals and Treasury and we aim to innovate further with regards to exploring the capability of the DGBB platform - watch this space!

I hope we can rely on your support for this important innovation and real-world experiment for Dash!

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
3 points,1 year ago
Some have stated that the only reward a Masternode Owner should get is the appreciation of the Dash ecosystem (and their regular ~weekly payments for services.) And the implication, stated or implied, is that other rewards/stimulus/ incentives would be bad/evil/wrong/conflict of interest.

I disagree, and for the following reason. Everyone knows your investment portfolio should have some diversity. Not just IBM stock, or just gold, or just treasury notes. Duh....diversity reduces risk and acts as a hedge. If you have 5 things in your portfolio, if one or two go down, the others should go up or at least be stable.

The exact same argument can be made for Masternode incentives. Right now, we have really on one incentive. If Dash does well (by market cap, value per Dash) then the Masternodes do well. But what if the Dash ecosystem goes through a 75% contraction because we're still somewhat coupled with Bitcoin? There has been a lot of grumbling and dissatisfaction has there not? Sure, we have grit. We have determination, but it has not been easy.

This is where diversity of incentives comes in. If Masternode Owners can derive benefits if Dash does well, that's GREAT! That's still true. But if we can ALSO benefit if one or more of the projects Dash sponsors does well, there's that critical diversity we somewhat lack at the moment. The VCO product gives us that diversity of incentive, without taking anything away from the benefit we get when Dash as a whole succeeds.

Still voting yes,

solarguy
Reply
4 points,1 year ago
Oh, and my previous statement is not a blanket endorsement of all possible Masternode incentive programs. Some could be in conflict with the larger mission of the Dash ecosystem.

solarguy
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
Cheers for the support solarguy and also for the thoughtful explanation - hoping that other MNO's see this too!

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
3 points,1 year ago
I'm voting yes on vote controlled offering (VCO) / distributing (optional) Utility Notes via the VCO. I think this could be an interesting expirement and i'm interested in the results.
Reply
3 points,1 year ago
I don't totally understand how it all works but from what I do understand I really like it. It seems like a good experiment either way and could be game changing for our DGBB and masternode owners. Yes from me!
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
Hi Mastermined,
Very much appreciate your support, we aim to make this something Dash can be very proud of.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
I see this as an interesting experiment. Voting yes.
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
Thanks seascape,
We're taking a lot of care in doing this, should be an interesting outcome for everyone. We appreciate the support!

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
I don't consider ETH anywhere near safe to us, if Dash needs more features than we should build it on top of Dash, if you need help by letting Dash be owned by MNO's ask Dash core team. On top of that this makes things overly complicated. Also needing to sidestep into ETH, makes Dash look weak. A clear any easy no, after understanding what you are proposing.
Reply
0 points,1 year ago
Hi A_node_to_a_master,

Thanks for the comment, I would suggest that Dash was not designed for what we are using the Utility Notes for, which is to digitise the Kuvacash business. Dash is the exclusive underlying payment network for Kuvacash.

This is why we had to choose ERC-20 for this purpose; there is already a huge amount of crypto ecosystem integration that allows the trading of these Notes on distributed exchanges etc, holding on hardware wallets, smart contract functionality for claims processing etc, so we've implemented this already for the business.

The question and vote about this VCO is not whether we use Ethereum tech for Utility Notes - as above, this has already been decided and done. What this vote is for is whether MNO's want us to distribute Utility Notes to them in a VCO (Vote Controlled Offering). If not, we won't go forward with the distribution. If so, then we will start to process claims and distribute Utility Notes to MNO's.

The thing to take note of is the bigger picture; if we do not distribute Notes to MNO's, then MNO's will not be participating in what is essentially the only way that myself, James, all existing stakeholders and all the Kuvacash executive are being incentivised with, for being involved in Kuvacash (none of us will own any equity in Kuvacash, we are setting it up in a very new way as a digital business, that ensures it's longevity).

The VCO is a very robust method for us give back to the MNO community, given that the DGBB was responsible for our initial funding. It is entirely voluntary on our part, and there will be no need for you to claim the notes if you don't want them. You can also claim them and give them to someone else who does want them :)

Please let me know if you have any other questions about this, happy to discuss, it is the whole point of this consultation.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
0 points,1 year ago
****************
Please note that there is a small minority attempting to disparage our project, mainly across backchannels, but also by continuing to spam the proposal threads and related VCO proposal, see below.

Luckily, we do have very strong supporters who have been letting us know that this is the case, and have also addressing both the proposal spam and backchannels, so a big thank you to everyone who has helped us get this far and for letting us all know what is happening behind the scenes.

I urge anyone who hears from a persistent detractor, or feels that we are ‘difficult to communicate with’ to PM me directly, anytime. I have spoken with numerous MNO’s, and we really do appreciate it when people take the time out to reach out to us for a chat. Just PM me on Dash Nation Discord (Max Yoga on DN).

As can be seen from our numerous interviews and live webinar updates to the network, we continue to make incredible progress towards making Dash a mainstream digital cash in Zimbabwe that actually helps people get things done in their day-to-day lives.

We will be bringing Dash to Africa, in a big way, no matter what, and are very grateful to our MNO and Dash Community supporters for the faith they have given us to move ahead and make history.

Thanks,
Drako and James
*****************
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
@Kuvateam: can you please come on Dash Force News (Friday live calls on YouTube) and talk about your project with Mark, Brian and Joel? Your webinars and Q&A's are fine but it'd be nice if your team was more open to a wider audience....to try to get to know the individuals on a more neutral and ad-lib platform. Right now, the perception I hear from several fellow MNOs is that your team is mercurial and hard to communicate, which can create problems later. VCO conversations would be fascinating too.
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
We have already extended invites to several potential guests, including a few Core team members, for Friday's appearance, and will have to wait for a response from them before we can consider any other guest options.
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
Hi Joel, please make time.

Differences aside, I’m sure discussions around Kuvacash and the first Dash VCO is one of the more interesting subjects currently running on the Dash DGBB.
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
Hi Cedbrown,
I have personally reached out to Mark and Joel to see if they are keen to do an interview on Friday.

One quick question, the guys want to know what other feedback from MNO’s you have received, we want to make sure we’re keeping MNO’s informed and up to date with it activities. Please post up here, or feel free to PM to me directly if you prefer.

Not only are we setting the standard for proposal updates, but have always been totally open about all aspects of the project. As such, me and/or James always arrange to speak with anyone interested in what we are doing, MNO or not, who PM’s me (Max Yoga on Dash Nation).

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
3 points,1 year ago
Hi Cedbrown,
Would love to - have not been invited yet to a DFN interview but I am always open to chat about the project.

We are certainly not hard to get hold of and if anyone PM’s me (Max Yoga on DN or Dash Forum) I will always get back to them.

Tao (of CATV) has been the only one to reach out to us so far, we have had several interviews with him, but would be glad to do one for DFN / Mason / Joel. If they reach out I can bring the team together for an interview / Q+A for Friday.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
I'm worried. I definitely will have voted, but I have moved masternodes to a hardware wallet since then, and I don't think i have my old private keys. Will this still be traceable? I'm thinking maybe me and others in the same position might get lost.
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
They've already stated that as long as you still have the private keys from the address(es) used, you're fine. These can be pretty easily recovered from the QT wallet even if you're no longer using that address.
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
Thanks Arthyron,
That is correct - no need to have the MN’s online but you just need the private keys from your collateral address.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
0 points,1 year ago
I will see if I can find my old private keys. Currently I don't have them, but they may be recoverable somehow I expect, maybe
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
Same here
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
Hi Acidburn,
As above..just need your keys for the collateral address, let me know if you have any more questions about this.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
0 points,1 year ago
No way. I see voting as a duty which should be carried out with integrity. If you need direct compensation to vote, then you shouldn't be voting.
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
Thanks for the comment Nerdmoney,
Would you suggest that MNO's should never receive anything at all back from any initiative they vote on?
The evidence and corresponding issue is that many MNO's (the majority of MNO's, in fact - c.75%) don't see voting as a duty for them at all, and therefore do not vote.

We are trying to encourage engagement through giving an additional incentive should MNO's actually vote, this being over and above having to do nothing and yet receive their MNO payouts regardless.

There has been considerable discussion about this issue, and what we have worked on is an innovation that should enhance the actual quality of voting, in fact there is a sort of parallel in the upcoming performance metrics and grading in Evolution that encourages MNO's to run more performant hardware.

The other option, which is enforcing voting to get payouts likely won't work; MNO's are likely to just automate the voting process to get their max payout. We feel it would be better if MNO's were encouraged to examine proposals in more detail, including updates on delivery kpi's and follow-ups for multiphase proposals.
Because of the additional incentive we're hoping that we will get further engagement from MNO's and are more than happy to set the standard of scrutiny that we feel ALL projects should be subject to, so we're just asking if we can start the ball rolling on this, and will see how it goes from there.

I hope in light of this you would reconsider your vote and help us to innovate something new for the whole of crypto, that shows the power of the Dash DGBB, please let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
"Would you suggest that MNO's should never receive anything at all back from any initiative they vote on?" That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

You can't really incentivize people to give a shit. Either they care or they don't. If you cut payouts or offer "bonuses" for voting, more people will vote, but most will have hasty and sloppy votes.

I spend a lot of time researching and carefully considering my votes. Last thing I want is for some MNO, that really doesn't give a shit about the proposal, cancelling out my vote with their arbitrary vote to get some Utility Notes.
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
Hi Nerdmoney,
"I spend a lot of time researching and carefully considering my votes"
We need more MNO's with this attitude for sure, but I don't feel that people will vote on any proposal just to get the Utility Notes - it takes a effort and engagement to go through the process.

We also have other intentions for the Utility Notes, which will mean that MNO's and other individuals who hold Notes have channels of control and/or consultation well after the project has been funded. We must of course be very careful about what we say relating to this, especially given the regulatory scrutiny happening right now but I hope you get the idea.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
You are setting precedence here.

Giving a small reward for voting may seem innocuous, but here's the critical question:
Do the MNOs get the same reward if the proposal doesn't pass?
Maybe so this time, but what about next time?

You pull this off and the next thing you know, proposal owners are slipping in voting rewards left and right to help their proposal pass.

Proposal owners rewarding the MNOs for anything is dangerous and ultimately will lead to the corruption of the whole voting process.
Reply
0 points,1 year ago
I have some thoughts around this that I have shared in comments further down.

Happy to see proposal owners rewarding Tier 2/MNOs, and I think it will simply entice more to hold and buy Masternodes.

There is no corruption because everything is done very publicly. You can’t hide a VCO.

Being able to partake in VCOs is a perk of being a MNO.

I thought about this long and hard and compared it to the ETH ICOs. In that case the early investors in ETH were rewarded with large value ownership chunks of upcoming ICOs as well, which were disproportionate to their initial investment in ETH.
It was the success of ETH as the platform for running ICOs that lead to this reward for early ETH investors.

Early Dash investors and MNOs are being rewarded in a similar burn unique way. There is no barrier to entry, everyone is free to buy a masternode if they can afford it. Even if they can’t afford an entire masternode, they can still pick up a masternode share right now, or wait for trustless masternode shares.

At the end of the day everything will smooth out, and people who are interested in the second layer perks such as the weekly masternode rewards and VCOs, will not be prevented from taking part.

More VCOs will be coming, and I think they are great.

Any feature that encourages participation in voting and also gives proposal owners the ability to share back their success is great for the network.

I also find the whole VCO concept super interesting and feel it will only attract more people to Dash, when they realise we are moving forward and willing to try new things.
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
Triptolemoose,
I don't think you understand what I mean corruption. What I mean by corruption is that there will be a conflict of interest.

Conflict of interest is one of the most difficult forms of corruption to detect. There will be proposals where MNOs will have to choose between what's is best for the Dash eco system or lining their own pockets. Sometimes these two things will align and sometimes they won't. Most MNOs would probably say they are not influenced one way or the other by perks, but who's to say? So at the very least, this could create a sentiment of distrust between Dash community and MNOs.
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
Have you really thought this through?

VCOs are coming. Yes, they will contain perks for Tier 2 (MNOs).

Yes MNOs can choose to vote and line their pockets. Nothing in the Dash DGBB prevents this.

If MNOs choose to go crazy with the perks and tank the price of the coin, then the smaller speculators may pack up and leave.

If they vote responsibly with the perks and choose projects that also increase the value of the network, then it will attract speculators to Dash.

VCOs and small perks for Tier 2 might encourage MNO engagement in the voting process (currently less than 25%). I don’t see any problem and I don’t see corruption, as none of this is backroom dealing. All is open and public and the free market decides the price.

I see VCOs leading to an increase in the desire for masternode ownership (or masternode share ownership), which is a good thing.

I see VCOs and the new ICOs. Dash needs to own this space.
Reply
0 points,1 year ago
Hold on there. Let's take a step back.

Why do we need to encourage more MNO engagement again? The way I understand it, a proposal is only required to have more than 10% of MNOs to vote Yes over No. So as long as we have at least around 500 MNOs voting, isn't that still alright? If not and MNOs feel that 10% is too high, couldn't we just vote to lower the requirement?

*My apologies if I missed this argument in the original proposal.
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0 points,1 year ago
The 10% requirement is there to prevent people from exploiting the DGBB by submitting proposals at the last minute and possibly controlling enough MN to push them through.

Ideally, we’d have more than 50% of MNOs voting. Currently we top out at 25% and it has been dropping.

Maybe MNOs are losing interest in following the monthly proposals...

I see the VCO as one way to increase engagement and participation, but time will tell.
Reply
1 point,1 year ago
I think that if anything, the VCO has only added extra scrutiny to the Kuvacash project, which translates to a lot more attention and research from voters who are already engaging anyway.

It is clear when looking at the Dash Vote Tracker, that the announcement of the VCO last year did not change anyone's vote, or even attract new votes. It all looks very flat, so Nerdmoney's fear of attracting sloppy votes is irrational and doesn't follow the recorded stats.

https://dashvotetracker.com/history.php?ProposalID=346

I like what you are doing here, and that you are willing to make breakthroughs and enter new territory.

This VCO concept shows the world that Dash is a tech trailblazer, and they should take notice.
Reply
2 points,1 year ago
There has been wide positive feedback regarding the Core Team's efforts to create a legal entity to represent the Masternode community. One of the main features of this legal entity, is that we could now own stuff, like a share in a business that resulted from a proposal. This constitutes additional incentive toward particular proposals. Is this bribery or is this just additional incentive to make good and effective decisions?

I view the VCO and utility notes as a parallel invention from KuvaCash to accomplish similar goals. I think Kuvacash has been very forthright and transparent in this effort. It can hardly be construed as bribery since they give it to the "no" and "abstain" votes, not just the "yes" votes.

I am not overly concerned with the 25% voting rate. As noted by TroyDash, there are a variety of legitimate reasons why this may be so. But I am also interested to see the result of the experiment of adding more incentives to the process. Keep in mind, we are doing things that have never been done before. So, it is important to think through the theoretical pros and cons of additional incentives, but it is also important to do the experiment and look at the result of the VCO/utility notes. At least in my estimation...

I vote yes, solarguy
Reply
3 points,1 year ago
Hi Solarguy,
Thank you for supporting us innovating this, much appreciated!

Drako
Reply
-1 point,1 year ago
Dear Kuvacash team,
As I said I was for the Kuvacash project, and I was more in favour of VCO at the bigining.
Although my questions seem to me to highlight points of weakness, my only answer was that my English is bad and incomprehensible.
I expected Kuvacash's spokesperson to be more open-minded.

I note that the only answer is that I am not good enough to deserve an answer and an exchange of views.
I'm relatively sure that people affiliated with Dash who want to open the money system to the poorest, poorest and often the least trained and educated can take from as high those who do not master the same language as them.
I'm afraid the message for other MNOs who don't speak English very well is, shut up, people who speak better than you necessarily know how to think better than you do.
Since all this seems acceptable to you, go ahead and vote yes.
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1 point,1 year ago
JoL!

Please respond to the replies you have already received from the team in the thread below.

The team already tried replying and also asked you to send your questions in French. It is a struggle to understand your English google translated mumblings.

I saw you also commented on Amanda’s new proposal, and I wish her luck in decyphering what you are trying to say.

Vote No. Vote Yes. Just please stop the endless spam.
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5 points,1 year ago
Those are the only options you are presenting - distributing utility notes to MNOs who voted, or not distributing any utility tokens to anyone in dash?
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2 points,1 year ago
They were very clear in the VCO announcement, that Utility Notes will only go to people who bother engaging with the Dash DGBB.

Currently, around 25% of MNOs bother voting. I'd really like to know why 75% refrain from voting on budget proposals?
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1 point,1 year ago
I don't know. Maybe they don't speak English. Maybe they don't vote because they approve of the budget outcomes at the end of the voting cycle. Maybe they think the time they would spend on voting on proposals is worth even more doing another activity, or maybe they are just lazy. But that's beside the point. With the way this proposal is being framed with those as the two options, I don't imagine that it would fail. I would have rather seen a proposal ask whether the utility notes should be distributed to MN voters (to encourage voting for some reason) or to all Dash holders, that would have been a much more interesting and meaningful vote, IMO. This one just looks to me like they are asking for a rubber stamp and are going to get it.
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1 point,1 year ago
75% of the non-voting masternodes are free to come here and place their vote as well.

The DGBB is here for a reason and they are using it well.

Kuvacash are submitting this vote voluntarily. To accuse them of setting it up as a meaningless rubber stamp process is absurd.

If Kuvacash gave Utility Notes to all masternodes, how would that encourage voting?

If we handed out Dash rewards to everyone instead of just the miners, how would that encourage mining?

Same goes for masternode rewards.
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2 points,1 year ago
They are submitting the vote voluntarily but the vote is not addressing the main issue that has been raised with the VCO, in my opinion. Has anyone objected to the idea of distributing utility notes to give back to dash? That isn't what I've been hearing, what I've been hearing are objections about how/to whom those utility notes are distributed. When you frame the vote so that it addresses the part of it that nearly everyone already agrees on, the vote is not particularly meaningful IMO. Maybe I am not representing the community discussions correctly?

If they gave utility notes to all masternodes, it wouldn't encourage voting, exactly. I disagree with the premise that it is a good idea to encourage voting in this way. In my opinion, voting *well* is already incentivized because of the Dash collateral, and incentivizing voting in any additional way just encourages voting for voting's sake, not voting *well*. If we are going to have people provide an additional incentive from another source, I would rather incentivize people to hold dash than incentivize masternodes to vote abstain at best and uninformed yes/no's at worst.

We don't hand out Dash rewards to everyone instead of just the miners because the miners wouldn't otherwise have a sufficient incentive if we did that. Similarly, we don't hand out utility notes to everyone instead of just voters because the voters... actually the voters are already sufficiently incentivized so there is no comparison.

As we've already discussed on Discord, to me it all comes down to the premise of what we should be incentivizing, not whether or not giving back with utility tokens is a good idea.
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1 point,1 year ago
The major issue that I gathered from discussions, were that people thought the VCO was some kind of bribe to MNOs to vote in a particular way, which was definitely not the case.

Some vocal people were very opposed to the whole idea of a VCO, they thought it sets a bad precedent and is dangerous for Dash, and it is those voices who are being heard on this vote which was set up today. Did you miss those discussions?

VCO stands for Vote Controlled Offering. If we remove the need to vote, then it is just an offering. The proposal here today is to see if people want the VCO distribution to go ahead.

The whole point of running the VCO was to incentivise MNOs to actually turn up and vote. You wrote that they don’t need any incentive, but it’s easy to see that an incentive IS required, as only 25% of MNOs actually turn up to vote.

By looking at dash vote tracker. The VCO didn’t actually encourage the silent 75% to front up and vote this time around either. But, maybe down the track (when Kuvacash is successful and they see what they missed out on), they will be incentivised to participate in future VCOs. (Carrot and stick)

So let me put you in the following basket. You don’t like the idea of a VCO, you think MNOs already have enough incentive to vote. But if any VCO happens and a distribution of Utility Notes takes place, you want to see all MNOs get some, not just the ones who bother to vote. So you are kind of negating the whole idea of running a VCO (Vote Controlled Offering) in the first place.

If you have any discussions with Drako, you will realise his team are huge fans of the Dash DGBB system. They want to encourage participation, and that’s why they have structured and aligned Kuvacash with the best interests of Dash AND voting MNOs.

I’m in the following basket. MNOs need to realise how powerful the Dash DGBB system is, and if they choose not to vote, they deserve to miss out. I also like interesting projects and approaches, and the game theory surrounding VCOs is interesting to me, and I am sure it will appeal to others too, therefore increasing the desire for masternode ownership.

If I am not on the mark let me know. I’ve tried reading your comments a few times to get my head around what it is exactly that you are suggesting. I feel like Jol has similar concerns to you, so if you feel like trying to translate his list of comments/concerns it would be appreciated. Your French may be better than mine.

In summary, if you don’t like the idea of VCO (Vote Controlled Offering), or if you want Utility Notes distributed to all MNOs rather than the ones who bothered to vote (Yes/No/Abstain), then I’d suggest you vote NO or ABSTAIN.

If you like the interesting approach to using the Dash DGBB to set up a new digital business (sub-DAO), and believe the masternodes who turn up and vote (Yes/No/Abstain) deserve to be rewarded with Utility Notes, then vote YES.

Everything is voluntary, no one is forcing anyone to accept Utility Notes or to vote, and the Kuvacash team are submitting to the wishes of MNOs by confirming the VCO via a super majority vote.

Voting YES!
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3 points,1 year ago
I do recall those discussions but I didn't think that the "bribe" thing was a particularly prominent position, just a few vocal people like you said. On the other hand, I'm not exactly sure how many people share my concerns either so maybe I am also in a vocal minority.

As for the incentive, I don't agree that the 25% participation rate makes it easy to see that more incentive is required. I don't see why 25% participation is a bad thing when it is the natural result of a system that has been set up with the economic incentives already aligned properly. The dash collateral incentivizes "caring about which proposals pass or fail" which translates to just enough participation as is optimal, and where votes are as informed as they can be. Outside, separate rewards such as VCO distributions, especially if they become more common, only incentivize "voting" which could lead to people setting up scripts to automatically vote abstain or automatically vote with the majority on everything. If there was a way to incentivize actual MNO engagement then I might agree with it but I don't think VCOs would have that effect.

I do think that a VCO distribution is better than no distribution, because any distribution at all also incentivizes holding dash (or creating masternodes), which is a good thing, so I have to vote yes on this, because there is no other option on the table.
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1 point,1 year ago
I love all things that incentivise MN ownership.

VCOs are coming, and different formats will be tested.

The Kuvacash team have built out the infrastructure to make this happen for the Dash community.

We could discuss and consider some VCO guidelines to follow, but let’s not crush original thought and experimentation.

We all know what happened with the New York BitLicense,.. all the free thinking movers and shakers packed up their bags and left the state. Let’s not have the same thing happen here.
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1 point,1 year ago
Hi TROYDASH,
Yes that’s correct.

Thanks,
Drako
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2 points,1 year ago
Just to clarify, I love the DGBB and being able to vote on proposals, it’s one of the many things we have that we have done right in Dash and differentiates Dash from any other crypto out there! We are trying to drive engagement and give something solid back to MNO’s who are engaging in voting, in any way, on proposals.

Thanks,
Drako
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2 points,1 year ago
What about MNOs who would happen to routinely cycle their payout addresses? How would they claim?
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2 points,1 year ago
Hi Quantumexplorer,
That's fine, you will have to sign with the private key you voted with on the proposal is all. To make it completely fair, the public keys for checking sigs from all the MN's that voted on the proposal are embedded in the smart contract used for pre-authorising claims.

Thanks,
Drako
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1 point,1 year ago
I do like the idea of supporting voters and giving incentives to vote. What I don't like is that only MNO's can get the benefit (as the only ones with the ability to vote). Once everyone who holds any amount of Dash gets to vote (i.e. MN shares or whatever system that gives voting proportional to holdings), then I'm more comfortable supporting things like this.

Otherwise, it feels like more elite benefits for the elite... like let's vote ourselves the ability to get special seats, tickets to shows, or other bonus offers available only to MNO's? I don't like that.
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0 points,1 year ago
I view owning a masternode as prestige as well as responsibility.
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0 points,1 year ago
The prestige and responsibility to grant yourselves perks and benefits? What's the difference between this and corrupt political systems then?

Like once you reach the top of a political system you can just grant yourself special rights/bonuses/perks. Who wants to be part of that system?

All holders should be getting the benefit of being part of the ecosystem (in proportion to their holdings). Not just those that meet a minimum threshold. Otherwise, the only people that want to be part of that system are the ignorant or those in power.
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1 point,1 year ago
I’m all for increasing transparency. Corrupt political systems are all about backroom deals.

What we are seeing here are the very public perks of being a masternode owner. Weekly masternode rewards are another perk.

Not everyone can be a MNO, and by owning a MN, you are now a member of a very small prestigious group of people who can afford it.

The responsibility is on MNOs to help build an ecosystem that users will actually gain benefit from. The actual potential users of Dash, like the people of Zimbabwe. Not just the speculators.

Choosing to buy or own a whole masternode is a significant investment decision. Let’s stack on the benefits of being a MNO to entice others to join us and put/leave their money on the line, as we have done.

Masternode shares are here already for anyone interested in locking up their investment, and trustless shares are coming. I see a clear distinction between the users of dash, the speculators, and the MNOs.

Let’s structure Dash and Masternode ownership in such a way to attract VCs, business executives, celebrities, and other high net worth individuals. These are the people we want as partners in Dash to help us grow out the infrastructure for the benefit of everyday users.
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0 points,1 year ago
No

You have a proposal on the floor now for 622 Dash per month for 4 consecutive months. There shouldn't be any talk about "Incentives to vote" by giving MN free token shares in your project. We have incentives to vote with our own investment and we don't need to be dealing with the potential legal ramifications.

I suggest giving the utility token to all Dash users.
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0 points,1 year ago
Did you view the April update? They’ve already sorted all the legals, so there are no legal ramifications as you are suggesting.

Also, the VCO has already been and gone (End 2017), but now they are just addressing community concerns to ask if the VCO should go ahead as was planned.

If MNOs don’t want Utility Notes, they can simply vote No on this proposal and then no MNOs get any.

Alternatively, if this proposal passes, MNOs don’t have to accept the Utility Notes, as they are optional.

Just remember, the team have structured this project so that it will run as a Sub-DAO, no one has any equity in the project.

All Dash users will already a get benefit from the Kuvacash project, which come from the goal of rolling Dash out in Zimbabwe. What the Kuvacash team were offering is something to incentivise MNOs to participate in a vote (Yes/No/Abstain), which has been dismal at 25%. Giving all Dash users Utility Note removes the entire point of the VCO (Vote Controlled Offering).

I see running successful future VCOs will have the add-on effect of encouraging masternode ownership (prestige) as well as participation in the DGBB that is a huge part of Dash we all love.
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1 point,1 year ago
I want to re-emphasize I do like the idea of incentivizing voting. That part is great.

The part to be wary about is granting only those that meet a certain tier special privileges. Once all holders get to vote in proportion to their holdings, that problem goes away.

I suggest waiting to give perks and incentives for voting (or to MNO's specifically) until that system is in place. Otherwise, it just feels like a small group giving themselves extra perks.

There's been talk about a marketing campaign "ignore Dash"? Maybe they ignore Dash because of attitudes like this. They say it's "centralized" because it's controlled by a few MNO's, who can just give themselves special "prestige" bonuses... that needs to change. And I'm hoping it will start to once everyone gets to vote and everyone gets rewards (via MN shares, or whatever system).
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1 point,1 year ago
Ok, let’s take the part you are wary about and expand on it as a thought experiment.

Becoming or being a MNO is a privilege that only few can afford.

For this experiment we can think of ourselves as executive Dash owners. We are the ones who have large amounts of money on the line. We are the ones who make the decisions using the DGBB system that affect the success of failure of Dash.

Let’s consider a large public company, where executives reward themselves with share options and bonuses when the company is doing well. Often they sign each other’s employment contracts that outline these special options and rewards.

Now, let’s expand your fear to the extreme, where Dash ends up like some kind of Shark Tank, where MNOs begin to consider themselves as VCs and hand out budget payments to entrepreneurs in exchange for ownership in their respective businesses. Ownership that resides entirely with the MNOs and is not shared back with the Dash network.

These perks can be considered the same as share option perks that executives receive in the public companies. Those perks are personal and not shared with all shareholders in the company either.

If executives take too many perks, they will sink the price of the company. Some of these executives may not even be large shareholders in the company anyway.

What we have with dash is a situation where the ‘executives’ (MNOs) are in fact large holders of Dash, so their decisions WILL affect their pocket.
If they choose to be unreasonable in assigning their own rewards, then they will be negatively affecting their own investment.

We are running a 2-Tier system here. The 2-Tiers have different reward structures already. MNOs don’t share the masternode payments with everyone.

Let’s extend this 2-Tier. Now the masternode network can become similar to a VC firm/Shark Tank, and ownership of any funded businesses can remain with the 2nd Tier MNOs.

We want to encourage and attract masternode ownership. I say, if you want a piece in upcoming VCOs, you’d better pick up a masternode asap before they are no longer affordable (or wait for masternode shares).

This 2nd Tier might even displace traditional VCs.

Just as ETH had their ICOs, Dash can become the network for VCOs.

I believe this is not something to fear, but something to embrace.
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1 point,1 year ago
Thanks for expanding with a thought experiment. I think your description details exactly what I see as a problem.

You say "If they choose to be unreasonable in assigning their own rewards, then they will be negatively affecting their own investment. " That's the case I feel now, or at least heading in that direction. We already get MNO payouts. Where will it stop? What other perks will we vote ourselves? As MNO's as a group start feeling entitled to more and more rewards they'll blindly be negatively affecting their own investment. I want to avoid negatively affecting my investment, so I'm calling out attention to this. Everyone that thinks this is unfair will leave (or not join), and the only people left will be those in power and the ignorant.

You say "MNOs don't share the masternode payments with everyone." ...I thought the intention (with Evolution) is to open up "trustless masternode shares" with "interest bearing accounts" so *everyone* can have those benefits. We need to be moving in that direction ---> sharing more benefits with others<--- than the other direction (giving more perks to incentivize more class divisions).

And if you say the "average" person will benefit from all the tech and dev and innovations of Dash (you literally said "All Dash users will already a get benefit from the Kuvacash project") I'm not sure how to respond to that. To me that's like the kings and nobility class saying "well the peasants get to work my land and benefit from my great policies, why should they be upset?"

MNO's already get payouts. Kings already collect taxes. But you want more, or as much as you think the market will bear (and it might not bear as much as you think)... that turns off me and probably the average person (or anyone that sees how unfair it is) - no wonder they "Ignore Dash"
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1 point,1 year ago
On the other hand, TBH I agree the idea of VCOs do sound really interesting. But I suggest waiting until the system can support it for everyone (it may be awhile at the rate evolution is going).

However, IF there is wide consensus that this is just being rolled out to MNO's *for now* because it's not practical to do so for all users *yet* (just as the ability to vote and MNO rewards *plan* to be opened up to all users), then I could be more supportive. It's just the attitude that perks should be given only to a special tier turns a lot of people off.
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0 points,1 year ago
I like the idea that MNOs are like Kings, as this is closest to the reality of the current situation.

We are building a great kingdom for people to enjoy, and if we make decisions that upset the people, then they will chop our heads (...well, our investment).

We also need to attract other Kings to join us, and VCOs with perks are one of these ways.

It is a great responsibility, and balancing act, which makes it super-interesting to me.

No way people are going to ignore Dash if we keep improving our ecosystem through integrations, and keep stacking on benefits of being a MNO. We will be attracting more high-quality investment from high net worth individuals.

Things will smooth out over time, just as has been done with the perks of being Royalty in the real world. QEII is still the biggest landowner in the world, but if she tried to enforce anything over the will of the people, she'd be out in a second.
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-1 point,1 year ago
Dear Kuvateam,
I submit questions that for me are unanswered to date
For me and certainly for others, this would help in understanding the direction taken by the Kuvacash project.
1) - How many Note token will you issue in total?
2) - How many Note token will you distribute to the MN who voted?
3) -If all the MN who voted claim their Note token, how many Note tokens in number and % of the total Note token?
4) - What % MN can claim Note token compared to the number of MN supporting the entire Dash network so far?
5) - What mechanism or code prevents the arbitrary distribution of Note token, knowing all that this can entail (like corruption) ?
6) - What mechanism or code prevents the MN network from being outvoted?
7) - What have you planned in the case where the voting rights of your corner become majority owned by people having no more interest in Dash at a time T?
8) - How do you justify that an MN supporting the Dash network at a time T fully and completely (which includes all transactions allowing Kuvacash to exist), does not have voting rights vis-à-vis Kuvacash?
9) - Do you question the relevance and effectiveness of the MN voting system as working in dash by not wanting to use it as a voting system for internal decisions in Kuvacash?
10) - Why another coin and not just use a proportionality between Dash and your internal token system?
11) - Why deprive Dash to serve as the only means of exchange of your token, for the future users of Kuvacash?
12) - Is the Kuvacash project entirely dedicated to Dash, or at some point there will be a possibility that Kuvacash will do without Dash and can become one of its competitors? If not, did you contract it?
13) - To this day who is closer to Dash than Ripple by Kuvacash, on the criteria of the centralization of Note token by a private company, with the free arbitrary distribution of their Token?
14) - Do you think that the MNO financed Kuvacash to make a bridge between Dash and the real use while taking into account the legal realities in Zim, or finance a corner exploiting the blockchain Dash while losing decentralization and losing the trustless aspect?
15) - Do you think it would have been simpler, more efficient and more cost effective for you to go through an ICO?
16) - In order to be consistent with Dash, can you simply consider a Kuvacash pass under the control of the DAO, which would allow you and every person and company flying to use or work with Kuvacash to simply have to purchase Dash?

I thank in advance my MNO colleagues for letting the Kuvacash team answer.
If it were impossible for Drako to understand what I am writing, maybe another person from Team Kurvacash would be kind enough to make the effort and respond.

Regards.
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0 points,1 year ago
Yeah, I already personally answered most of these questions for you in private messages on Discord...
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0 points,1 year ago
Jol, why are you continuously spamming the same questions over and over?

At least have the courtesy to read and respond to the replies the team, and others (myself included) are giving you.

Everything here has been addressed in answers on the Kuvacash proposal page and directly on your exact same list of questions posted there.
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0 points,1 year ago
Yah Jol, asked and answered. There is no need to ask more, and again.
solarguy
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