Proposal “Kuvacash-Pilot-Launch-Funding“ (Closed)Back
Title: | Kuvacash - DOWNVOTE PLEASE NEW PROPOSAL POSTED |
Owner: | kuvateam |
Monthly amount: | 760 DASH (22818 USD) |
Completed payments: | no payments occurred yet (3 month remaining) |
Payment start/end: | 2018-08-17 / 2018-11-15 (added on 2018-08-03) |
Final voting deadline: | in passed |
Votes: | 132 Yes / 452 No / 71 Abstain |
Proposal description
Kuvacash Pilot Launch Funding (Base 003)
****NOTE - DOWNVOTE PLEASE**
New proposal here:
https://www.dashcentral.org/p/KUVACASH-RESTRUCTURED-LAUNCH-PROPOSAL
Please downvote this proposal, as the above restructured proposal has now been posted.
****NOTE - DOWNVOTE PLEASE**
New proposal here:
https://www.dashcentral.org/p/KUVACASH-RESTRUCTURED-LAUNCH-PROPOSAL
Please downvote this proposal, as the above restructured proposal has now been posted.
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Discussion: Should we fund this proposal?
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What's wrong with fintech results? Dunno if you've taken a look at the markets lately, but Dash could use some fintech results. More on-ramps from fiat to Dash is a fantastic thing for Dash as it allows Dash the opportunity to demonstrate its superiority in a number of use cases.
Complaining about what Zimbabwe's government does is irrelevant, the point is to provide a service to a particular market and demographic. We can't make regulators do what we want, but we can do what we want within their regulations to achieve benefits for ourselves.
The "grassroots" argument has been addressed ad-nauseum below. The network is not much better off now than it has been previously in terms of actual use of Dash. Onboarding merchants isn't by itself enough. It's going to take millions more expenditure in Venezuela to achieve anything resembling "mass adoption." KuvaCash is an attempt toward the same goal from a different angle.
The rest of this is just a convoluted stream-of-consciousness that repeats ideological rhetoric without really having any actual point other than the propagation of that ideological rhetoric.
At the end of the day, what matters is whether or not this will enhance the value of Dash and its ability to carry out the goals of the network or if it won't, both immediately and long term. If it's a successful model--unlike grassroots efforts--it's much easier to transplant this in to other regions as it requires much less work and personnel to carry it out, as most of the development work and costs are handled up front. Additionally, grassroots work can be used to bolster or augment it as well, the two are not mutually exclusive, but they *are* mutually exclusive if this project is not allowed to come to fruition. Then it's just a waste of a million dollars, like buying a sports car and then taking it to a junk yard without ever trying to drive it.
@drako: I wish you all the best and really hope this project will happen, but maybe you need to skip 1 or 2 cycles (as we did) or work with your fiat leftovers mentioned in the current dash watch report.
Update with regards to cooperation between proposal owners for this funding cycle.
We have ongoing conversations where other proposal owners were involved, including DACH, and where all were to lower their asks for this month. We are working with Core and others to see how we can continue to see Kuva through to launch (and see important proposals that cannot be paused funded).
Unfortunately although DACH initially indicated that they could lower their ask for the month by scaling activities, they feel confident that they will not need to this month, having collected votes enough to be near or passing the threshold.
We are not pleased at this but of course will continue our cooperative endeavours with other proposal owners such that our work and that of others is not disrupted in this voting cycle.
@Essra, as you are aware Kuva do NOT have accessible fiat remaining to take the risk on for launch, but what is indeed possible is for your team to look at cost reductions this month, which we know is possible. It may be worth sharing specifics with the community, so they can decide for themselves whether there is value in your more ancillary cost-center activities, or whether you should restructure your proposal.
Thanks,
Drako
Spending even a single dollar on PR, marketing, sponsorships and meet ups during this time is a complete and utter waste of time and money.
No one advertises their worst performing stocks during bear markets. Funds only ever advertise their top performers. Why? Because new customers will never ever part with a single dollar to invest in a space when all they can see is market caps sliding down day after day.
Big marketing spends and hype only work on the way up. You can’t convince the average man on the street that something which has been tanking for the last 6 months is actually a really successful project, and that they should buy some Dash and be part of it.
In their view, if things were going well, then surely the price would be going up.
The Kuvacash team have an understanding of what it takes to land Dash in Zimbabwe. It’s not a conspiracy (such as MNO ‘reasonably’ states below) that they choose to roll out with the ability to peg to USD within the wallet. This is what needs to be done to land Dash in Zimbabwe, because in Zim USD is King. The added benefit, is that the extended crypto bear market will have no effect on adoption of the Kuvacash wallet, which is perfect for pilot roll out. When the market turns around again, then users will be enticed to invest an amount of their holdings in Dash.
Also, re: MNO ‘reasonably’ comment about Solidus.
Hiring people with skills and experience is not a bad thing, (and nothing to do with ripple and bankers?). So please pack up your fringe / paranoid conspiracy theories, we can do without them in the Dash community, especially if we want to achieve mainstream adoption.
The idea that a grass roots approach is just a fantasy, it is not based on the evidence so far. Just ask Tungfa to confirm again. He has access to the web stats for Africa.
Venezuela is going through some issues right now. I hear rumours of dash.org domain being blocked for the country (could someone from Venezuela please confirm?).
Any serious roll out needs to be done within the regulations of a country, and with a licence to operate. This is the only way forward for mainstream adoption. All large international crypto exchanges are now fully compliant, doing full KYC and AML on customers and their funds. This is the future and the way forward.
I hope the Kuvacash team can work something out with Core and other proposal owners, because this project is something truly unique to Dash. These guys are a highly calibrated team who have the experience and talent required to actually deliver Dash into Africa.
I’m looking forward to the latest video demo of the Kuvacash wallet, as I am sure it will silence many of the naysayers and doubters.
Voting YES!
Who are the Operations Director and staff to support launch for example? Show more faces more transaprency more product demos. I can agree that you deserve a very high salary and so forth but all that needs to be transparent+all other salaries. I want a full accounting report of all the months, and all the expenses etc in an excel sheet linked with dash transactions and or receipts etc before we proceed any further with this.
There was actually a full attestation and validation held by Dashwatch as to our financials. This included tracing from our open-book accounts a random sample of 25 invoices through to payments (bank statements/trezor). We had set up a single masternode for less than 25 days, in 2017, while ramping the project up, and was always public knowledge - soon as we were online with the team in less than a month, it was liquidated to provide capital for the project as per the plan.
For a project like ours, we do not publish down-to-the-individual details for these costs, but a full in-person, open-book validation by Dashwatch was asked for last month, and we arranged for this to be done. This included answering multiple questions from the community that were gathered over a period of several weeks. The validation Dashwatch implemented was to the level that no other project or proposal has ever done, and took us 2 full days of in-person, 5 hours of video recording and analysis and composition by Dashwatch over a full week following that.
Note: Dashwatch had access to every single invoice and payment on our books in order for them to ask questions, trace and validate as they saw fit. They also saw details of our financial scratch sheets, which are not public, and which relate to our complex liquidation schedule. The liquidation summary has also been validated and was published with our financials.
The network has supported us to get this far, and we have been publishing financials for months that indicate what we would be needed for launch. We are here now, on-time, on-schedule, with a project done more transparently and validated to a further extent by Dashwatch than any other so far.
The next phase is to do what has been planned since the inception of the project, and that is to launch Kuvacash in Zimbabwe. I hope with this in mind you will choose to support the launch.
Thanks,
Drako
One more thing to note - nobody actually owns equity in Kuvacash. The structure of the Kuvacash organisation is such that the ownership is in trust. We have a VCO (Vote Controlled Offering) allocation of Utility Notes for masternodes that voted in our original proposal. You can register for these here, if you voted YES, NO or ABSTAIN. You will need to be able to sign with your masternode collateral address to eventually receive Notes.
https://vco.kuvacash.com/register
Utility Notes are discussed in depth in our earlier proposals, let me know if you need further details. The summary is that they are an ERC-20 token that Kuva will use as business collateral across the business.
We hold regular (bi-monthly) live Q&A sessions for the network with the entire executive team - we will invite others from the team as we move towards launch. We are still in the process of finding an ops director, but they will certainly be involved in the live updates. Also, as you mention, we are also producing a full video demo of our software, screen-capped next week and also demonstrating the business model for launch.
Thanks,
Drako
Answering your thread all in one go. Because Kuvacash is a strategic initiative that is developing not just software, but business structures (in multiple jurisdictions), partnerships, legal and regulatory in multiple countries - there is a fair bit of travel involved.
There are 30 people involved, correct. Actually more than that, including contractors and ad-hoc service providers/expert consultants. All people are being paid market rate (expert consultants) or under market rate (executive). I’m happy for Dashwatch to attest to this, along with all the other validation and attestations they have given us.
There is no way to do this at 1/10th the cost. As it stands, we ran an accelerated schedule, and with very efficient use of funds. At 1/10th the cost, we’d not even have a license let alone software.
We are at the eve of actually launching now, having delivered what we said we would, on-schedule. It is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for Dash to realise its key use case as digital cash, and in an economy that needs it. I hope you will reconsider in light of this.
Thanks,
Drako
Given 250 users this is 1600$/user!
Why is there still so much software development needed when the system is claimed to be ready?
Targeting to ramp up to 250+ users in 3 month seems really slow, especially compared to the operational costs! What prevents you from targeting 10x or 100x more? Either raise the targets or lower the costs!
What will be the running costs be after the pilot? What is the long-term funding (1y, 5y) model?
I’m going to copy an answer already given below for why it is best-practice to launch with a pilot, and to moderate user numbers until operations are ready.
I have (check my LinkedIn) launched these kinds of services before - you do not simply go 0-20k users in three months, operationalising at the beginning requires very careful work with the first people using your service stack, to the point of concierge, moving on to a slightly larger group via MGM or outreach, getting to the point where there is insight enough to know how to scale and what will be required with regards to resources. Software changes and adjustments are performed throughout, and usually on a very intensive schedule because if successful in any way, there is usually a high load on your developers as well.
Once we have the insight, and at this stage we do anticipate it to be positive, we would be in a state of readiness to scale to the next user tranche of 500+ users.
Insight includes data to ascertain our projected margins, what parts of the proposition are/are not working (where to focus our attention) and other information that is just not possible to get until we are ‘in the wild’.
At that point, we’d KNOW that this would be a success and will need further funds from the network to get it to a few ‘000 people. We could then be confidently funded for the next tranche, which would be our growth and further outreach.
To explicitly answer your questions re 1-5 year long-term funding; unless we are successful with the pilot, there would be no purpose to DAO continuing funding. The insight we will get will allow us to give a meaningful answer - we have projected margin calculations but for a greenfields project like this, we need to get to pilot first before we can rely on those.
Lowering costs is like lighting a barbecue without enough tinder.
Note that once we start, if successful we can’t just ‘pause’ with customers - in fact we can’t actually pause now, we are commited as per would be expected of our published schedules. And when Kuva is successfully driving real adoption, and I don’t mean a few hundred merchants, I expect MNO’s would vote to support us getting as much penetration into the market as fast as possible.
Thanks,
Drako
It’s going toward operationalising the pre-pilot and pilot. The development teams need to run over this period, as do exec management, operations staff...
Not sure what your question is precisely..but you don’t account for a pilot on a per-user basis, as it’s not an acquisition cost.
Thanks,
Drako
Maybe I am missing something here but it sounds like at this scale the cost are quit high, I would like to know how much more the cost will cost at a larger scale ?
Question1:
Are you able to provide an chart of organisation structure ? Which also includes which country they work from
Question 2:
How much do these people actually care about Dash ? Seeing each and everyone wants to be paid in full as it seems.
At any-rate to me this is doesn't sound like a start-up company with passion to its cause. ( I am saying this because most start-ups are willing to accept a smaller income now, for a the future of the company.
what is the total number in funding so far ? 1 Mill ?
now this , what is coming next ?
tbh this is totally not sustainable , is dash supposed to pay for x month onwards ? and then ? another x Dash amount for PR and whatnot ?
i have not seen anything or heard anything from ZIM direct about this , remember this is supposed to be a Seed Funding , not a yearly / monthly payroll for whatever might come next !
(check alt36, they put 50% $ themself in + scored outside funding on top - that is sustainable ! + personal $ involvement keep things “real and on the ground” (money falling from the sky does not)
This is the part where we launch, and I am aware you are not a supporter of the project, nor have you been from the very beginning. I have approached you personally about this, and on the points where you do not make sense, but unfortunately you are not willing to engage.
We are a key strategic initiative for Dash, and have delivered on-time and with full transparency to get to where we are now - ready to launch in Zimbabwe.
If you’re suggesting that the DAO should not fund any other strategic initiatives other than Core, from which you receive your own payroll, especially ones that HAVE been delivering on-schedule and have been clear on their aims, then that is your opinon, and certainly is not fact, nor is it what Core believes to be the case, with whom not only are we in close communication, but have explicitly supported our project (for example, our MoneyConf debut which was directly supported by Core).
Anyway, thanks for posting. Myself and the entire team, should we get the chance, will prove you wrong yet again, as we have previously.
Thanks,
Drako
I really do like your project, and I think you took the only possible approach possible, to help the most people possible in Zimbabwe, so I'm not downvoting it, I just think that compared with other projects this month that have delivered 1000s of users already for a fraction of the price there is an obvious route to take for funding.
We have been working for 9 months to deliver everything we need to get to this point. I believe that you are however making a category error here.
If you, like Tungfa above (who does not actually understand the project at all) are comparing our project with grassroots initiatives - this is like comparing apples and oranges. We are a strategic initiative that has been IN PREPARATION FOR LAUNCH. We do not have our product in the hands of people until launch happens.
To compare us to some ‘adoption’ metric (which, arguably Dash has near-zero adoption at this point, anywhere in the world) while our focus was on completing software, licenses, partnerships and business structure in preparation for launching as a money system, is not correct.
The network has paid us to get to this point. We are on-schedule with all software, partnerships and licenses in place for launch. It would be more than unusual to have the project wound up now, because, as Arthyron and others state below ***this is it*** ie the moment of truth. Once we launch, and have had time to get through the pilot stage, criticisms like this might indeed be valid - at this stage, however, they are meaningless.
Efforts in Ghana and Nigeria have NOT delivered mass adoption, and grassroots will not deliver this by itself. Tungfa himself, since he has never supported the project, stated that traffic in Africa (and the usage expected) had not been delivered despite the efforts made there and DAO funds spent by others.
We recognise this, and that is precisely why we have taken a totally different approach to gain adoption. It has grassroots elements, but is a highly leveraged initiative. We are not doing pizza and biscuits meetings, or organising ‘education’ or giveaways. We have a focussed plan which is being implemented flawlessly, as can be seen from the numerous reports from ourselves and Dashwatch.
If this project is wound up, there is no other way of telling if it would work or not - unless another elite group works for a year to implement what we have done, and progresses to launch - this is highly unlikely to happen, and in any case may be too late to take advantage of the opportunities we are accessing in Zimbabwe following the deposition of Mugabe and the democratic installation of a new government.
We have an opportunity to make history. To pull the plug on the eve of the curtain going up on work that the DAO has paid for over the last 9 months would be naive to say the least.
I hope with this in mind, you and other MNO’s will continue to support our project, actually seeing it through to launch.
Thanks,
Drako
We have ongoing conversations where other proposal owners were involved, including DACH, and where all were to lower their asks for this month. We are working with Core and others to see how we can continue to see Kuva through to launch (and see important proposals that cannot be paused funded).
Unfortunately although DACH initially indicated that they could lower their ask for the month by scaling activities, they feel confident that they will not need to this month, having collected votes enough to be near or passing the threshold.
We are not pleased at this but of course will continue our cooperative endeavours with other proposal owners such that our work and that of others is not disrupted in this voting cycle.
@Essra, as you are aware Kuva do NOT have accessible fiat remaining to take the risk on for launch, but what is indeed possible is for your team to look at cost reductions this month, which we know is possible. It may be worth sharing specifics with the community, so they can decide for themselves whether there is value in your more ancillary cost-center activities, or whether you should restructure your proposal.
Thanks,
Drako
you can find our current number in our public accounting in our proposal or on our website. additionally simon will show you our numbers right soon.
discrediting our proposal is not a proper way to prepare a possible future alliance.
all the best,
essra
Nobody is discrediting your proposal. You are aware that your response is not in line with what you have told us on our calls.
You mentioned that you would be able to restructure your activities and lower costs, and now you say that you cannot - which we know is untrue. The reason we understand that it is possible, is precisely because your public accounting is visible and we were able to have a sensible conversation about this.
Your transparency and willingness to come to the table was important, and you have decided another route that does not entail cooperation with the group, it's as simple as that.
Thanks,
Drako
Essra is responsible for marketing, education and partnerships in our team. This is why he´s not aware of our exact budget and calculations all the time. He agreed to talks about a potential “budget alliance”, but he definitely did not assure you a granted scale down from our side. As we are acting like a Sub-DAO and therefore we always need to find consensus about decisions like this, he wouldn´t even be allowed to decide that alone.
Here are the numbers essra announced:
leftover from June: 30,171.68 €
- expenses in July: 66,955.40 €
= leftover from July: - 36,783.72 €
planned expenses for August: 48,629.01 € (already scaled down from 103,387.07 €)
+ liabilities from July: 36,783.72
= current liabilities (Jul + Aug): 85,412.73 €
our current proposal ask: 408 DASH
x current Dash price: 144.58 €
= potential funding in September: 58,988.64 € (if Dash price stays at the current level)
potential funding in September: 58,988.64 €
+ donations received in August: 12,662.69 €
= potential available budget for September: 71,651.33 €
potential available budget for September: 71,651.33 €
- current liabilities (Jul + Aug): 85,412.73 €
= leftover in the beginning of September: -13,761. 40€
potential funding in October: 58,988.64 € (if Dash price stays at current level)
- remaining liabilities of September: 13,761. 40€
- planned expenses for October: 48,629.01 € (scaled down as mentioned above)
= leftover in the beginning of October: -3,401.77
All numbers except for the scaled down expenses are available in our public budget accounting. Essra already supported the Dash Embassy D-A-CH UG with 30k from his private pocket at the beginning of the year. We will definitely not be able to go on if we don´t receive a funding for the next 2 months, if the Dash price stays at current level.
We hope you see that there is no room for us to scale down any further.
These talks are over and we will not answer further requests from your side.
#itWASapleasure
simontheravager
Please read below; it’s not that simple or possible (my *important* post and Arthyrons *This is it* post)
Let me know if you have any other questions though.
Thanks,
Drako
You are doing the right thing speaking with Core. I hope a solution can be found as I really do want to see your project succeed.
"The funding will cover Kuva’s launch – Phase 1 Pre-Pilot and Phase 2 Pilot activities in Harare, Zimbabwe."
"The pilot phases will expand from 10-25 users in the Pre-pilot through to 250+ users in the Phase 2 Pilot."
So is this the launch of your operations? Or for a pilot that can handle about 250-300 people?
For me a launch should be able to handle at least 10-20k users and expect that many.
This is correct -
It is important to note that we are staging this as is best practice for a service like ours.
I have (check my LinkedIn) launched these kinds of services before - you do not simply go 0-20k users in three months, operationalising at the beginning requires very careful work with the first people using your service stack, to the point of concierge, moving on to a slightly larger group via MGM or outreach, getting to the point where there is insight enough to know how to scale and what will be required with regards to resources. Software changes and adjustments are performed throughout - if successful in any way, there is usually a high load on your developers as well.
Once we have the insight, and let’s say it is positive, we would be in a state of readiness to scale to the next user tranche.
Insight includes data to ascertain our projected margins, what parts of the proposition are/are not working (where to focus our attention) and other information that is just not possible to get until we are ‘in the wild’.
At that point, we’d KNOW that this would be a success and will need further funds from the network to get it to a few ‘000 people. We could then be confidently funded for the next tranche, which would be our growth and further outreach.
Thanks,
Drako
Walter
Ballpark for now is that it should be similar to what we are asking here, at least we are aware of the problems in the DAO regarding limited funds, and will plan accordingly.
We will only ask to continue if, through the pilot, it is apparent that Kuvacash will be successful. If that is the case, I imagine that the network will be very happy to fund.
We will share data from the pilot in enough detail for MNO’s to make an informed decision.
If the uptake and data shows that we got it right, we’re making history and we would need to grow as quickly as we can.
Thanks,
Drako
Thanks
Walter
1. Put no further money into KuvaCash. Risk: We totally kill a project that serious examination suggests are about to have their big launch. We 100% kill the chance to find out if we are going to make a meaningful difference in Zimbabwe. We 100% kill the very positive Public Relations and Marketing that we have gained from this effort. We put a significant chilling effect on future complex projects that may take long term effort.
Reward? Better chance of getting the funds to Core so they operate without any impediment. We limit how much Dash we lose if KuvaCash would ultimately not succeed.
2. Approve the proposal. Risk? Core may have to shuffle things around for a month to meet obligations. KuvaCash may take this additional money, and somehow still not launch.
Reward? KuvaCash does in fact launch. The big push is done and expenses may go down substantially as they enter into maintenance/upgrades. PR/marketing goes ballistic. This pilot project illustrates the pros and cons of going the full above-board, full compliance method of re-making currencies and economies in Africa. The launch and the 90 days after the launch gives us real data on if we want to pursue this method. Core successfully shuffles things around and figures out creative ways to get the job done without eating up more than 70% of the budget.
I personally am voting yes because the potential reward is so high. And of course, I would like to be vindicated when the launch really does go forward and KuvaCash proves they aren't just a very sophisticated long con as some have alleged.
solarguy
Thank you once again for your support, and for the explanation above - much appreciated.
A compact video is coming in a week that will show our software and a summary of our business model for launch.
Thanks,
Drako
Why did you not postpone your public launch of Kuvacash 1 or 2 months so your budget proposal would not clash with Dash Core Group budget proposals ? Or even consulted the Dash community about this upcoming public launch through a pre-proposal discussion ?
(the stretched budget funding this month would most certainly have been mentioned and you could have adjusted the date of your public launch)
Anyways, its too late to change anything at this point and i'm forced to vote no on your budget proposal.
Our projections, which we were forced to downsize for the reasons of price decline and Core’s ask, have been around for months.
We can’t pause a project like this without damage, for reasons I have posted below by myself and others - in particular read Arthyrons *this is it* post.
We’re currently working with Core to see if we can find a way of alleviating things, but we’re in a situation where if this is not funded, then the project will be wound up. Consider that this has been the efforts of over 30 people, working for 9 months (myself and James having been preparing since last April, the rest of the team since Nov ramp).
Please give due consideration in terms of this - we are not a cost-center business like many other proposals, we’re a strategic initiative to land a self-sufficient service in Africa starting in Zimbabwe which fulfils the Dash vision - to become mainstream digital cash. We are at the eve of our launch, and the network has paid us to get to the point that we’re ready for it, and we are on-schedule.
If we do not get funded, it is over, simple as that. I hope you reconsider in light of this.
Thanks,
Drako
Thanks for the suggestion, we are actually moving forward with a restructured proposal now - will be posted by EOP Monday.
Thanks,
Drako
If this is true then Kuvacash will not be funded even if it passes........... Am I right?
solarguy
This is really bad timing to do a public launch for Kuvacash in a time of such a stretched budget funding cycle.
As I replied above, we have been communicating our intention and financials for months. We have also adjusted our ask in light of the budget pressure from Core.
We are on-time and on-schedule for launch, as would be expected from the network. We are not able to delay, and if we did have issues that delayed launch we’d have justifiable criticism from the network.
As it stands, we communicated our financials, as did Core, from April 2018, which is about as far back we could go without volatility of Dash making our projections meaningless.
We are in a competitive cycle. Dash Core Group does not want to take the risk of moving or adjusting their proposals because if the price dropped further, they are risking not meeting their liabilities and triggering a disorderly restructure (they cannot take more than 100% of the budget - because that is all there is).
We’re pushed into the thankless position of having to be in the ring on a very competitive month. Nobody is happy about that, and I am speaking with other proposal owners to see what can be done.
Thanks,
Drako
It will need to have more votes than currently funded non-Core proposals.
We are in talks with other proposal owners, in particular with D-A-CH to form a partnership that should allow us to put our best foot forward for funding.
If we are not funded this month, Kuva can’t go forward for launch which effectively will end the project, so we are all doing what we can to ensure that this doesn’t happen, while minimising disruption to other essential proposals.
Thanks,
Drako
I've heard the same recurring conversation over the last several months.
"What has Kuva accomplished?"
"You obviously haven't reviewed the update videos."
"Show me something tangible!"
"Kuva has delivered everything on schedule and is still on track"...
What we have here is a failure to communicate. Maybe the video format isn't very effective. Make bullet points with reference links to back things up where appropriate.
We have actually both - written reports (which were worked on by Dashwatch from information provided by us) and live video and Q&A, which was followed up by further DashWatch reports. These are socialised extensively on DN and on DC proposal pages.
For the point-by-point full validation report by Dashwatch, covering up to July 2018, you can go to their latest written report here:
https://dashwatch.org/files/1532801904838.pdf
The video report, which has been indexed (see DF comments in the video) is referenced in that document.
We are also producing a full demo of the software this coming week, with screen-share software and it will be out well in time before voting closes.
And as always I’m more than happy to discuss in person - just PM me on DN. (Max Yoga)
Thanks,
Drako
Show the business model in more detail, and explain why it will work.
We’re preparing this exact video this coming week. Will include screen-cap of our software in action, and end-to-end explanation of the services we are launching for the pilot, demonstrated with the software itself.
Thanks,
Drako
after reading the discussion here and having followed the activities of Kuva since the first Proposal, I voted Yes.
But I suggest that Kuva offers a certain amount of equity to Dash Venture.
Regardfully
PS:
I am very close to D-A-CH and, dear fellow Masternoder, we must prevent those two entities from going under. Kuva is too big, they need the Blockrewards, but please also consider donating to the D-A-CH Embassy, in case they don't get any funding for the third month in row.
All for the DAO and the DAO for all.
Thanks for the comment and vote - note that there is no equity held by anyone (other than temporarily in trust) for Kuvacash - we are a new kind of digital business and are establishing in quite a different way. The incentives are all Utility Notes - for which the structure is being settled/developed from a legal standpoint.
We have reserved UN’s for MNO’s who voted in our first proposal (YES, NO or ABSTAIN are all eligible to receive notes). Myself and James are incentivised with the exact same notes. To register for the distribution, please go to:
Https://vco.kuvacash.com
For now you will just need your email.
Thanks for your note also re DACH, I am speaking with Essra shortly.
Thanks,
Drako
sorry, yes, I forgot the UN thingy, maybe because I forgot to vote back then :)
Cheerio
Macno
1) This project is so lofty it cannot be easily explained. The interview video from DashWatch is nearly 2 hours long. Watch it and ask yourself if it provides any concrete information about what has been accomplished.
2) As Kuvacash will supposedly create a software service that will allow users to convert Dash to other currencies, it is an exchange business and should be self-funded. If that is NOT what it is, then why not just use one of the many free wallets that are already available and skip the testing?
3) The Branding "Kuvacash" does not include the name "Dash" anywhere, but we have paid for everything they have done thus far.
4) The DashWatch report states "The proposal team has indicated that the next step will be performing a pre-pilot with a small group of known individuals..." Why not skip the lengthy descriptions and just test the thing? Or you could be more absurd and do a pre-pre-pre-pilot and drag out the process a few more months.
5) For an MNO to do a proper analysis of this project, it seems necessary to watch hours of video and read through many pages of text just to figure out if anything worthy has been accomplished.
6) The Frame 48 project, associated with Kuvacash, was to deliver a "series" of videos that on the description of the first proposal states: "to look at what adoption of cryptocurrency (specifically Dash) looks like around the world." Where is this "series" of videos and tell me please where it is "specifically Dash"? What are the view-counts on these videos?
Kuvacash costs thus far: Sep '17: (565*3) + Apr '18: (622*4) = 9268 Dash spent!
Frame 48 costs thus far: Jan '18: (45*1) + Feb '18 (187*1) + May '18: (147*1) = 379 Dash for one video with fewer than 3000 views on YouTube. Are we crazy?
My opinions: This project will never end its monthly needs from our treasury. Our money is better spent on projects with more concrete goals and timely proof of delivery.
Thanks for taking the time to make your comments.
Let me try to address your points one-by-one.
1. The project is simple - we aim to launch Dash as a money system in Africa, starting with Zimbabwe. For this to happen, we need to provide a number of services to users - so we produced a wallet to allow users simple way to receive and pay Dash, and also to get USD cash through an agent network. This is a summary of what we have discussed and published multiple times, and is also in the proposal text above under ‘Background’. I will leave you to read more but let me know if you need specifics. Note that we are producing an and-to-end demo for our pilot launch over this coming week, and will share this with the community.
2. Kuvacash is not an exchange - in fact we would use the services of exchanges including Golix and Uphold to exchange Dash for USD - raw Dash wallets just don’t work for users in Zimbabwe, this is the case especially for merchants who do not want to be exposed to crypto risk. We are streamlining the remittance process as well so people can get access to Dash and feed our ecosystem, which is not trivial. In addition to this, we are developing partnerships to bring Dash to people through services they use every day. I hope that clarifies things a bit more.
3. Our branding and approach is in line with and agreed by Dash Core (which was explicitly signed off by Fernando when we co-exhibited at MoneyConf in Dublin). We are not Dash, we are Kuvacash, ‘Powered by Dash’ as per how we position ourselves everywhere. Think of our relationship to Dash as similar to ‘Intel Inside’ - that way we can position and brand appropriately for the market, and people are aware they use Dash within our wallet.
4. I have personally launched money services internationally - you may check my LinkedIn for yourself to verify. It is extremely important that a money service like this is launched carefully, with full concierge for the initial pilot group, any issues resolved, moving onto a larger pilot before invite-only MGM launch. This is how every other contemporary money service, from Revolut through to Uphold has launched. We are taking a best-practice approach, as would be expected of us.
5. This is not a simple project. There are at this point over 30 people involved in Kuvacash across multiple dimensions of the business, not counting our external partners. Reporting on this is complex, and we have erred on making a comprehensive effort of this rather than producing overly simplified summaries for the network. Dashwatch has written up the highlights in all their reports, we have kept the network abreast of our developments in detail as well with our video and live Q&A. I would expect this of every major proposal on Treasury. You can certainly get an adequate understanding of the entire project by reading our proposal background in this DC submission, and validating it all through reading Dashwatch’s latest in-person validation report.
6. Frame 48 is an independently funded project, but we are using their outputs to build advocacy and support for our project from many people and partners who we are now working with. It covers the reason that we are doing what we set out to do.
On top of this, we are also aiming to become self-sufficient - we are a strategic initiative for Dash to land in Africa and make history. I hope you will consider supporting what we’re doing, given where we have gotten to with the power of Dash and the DAO.
With this funding we launch in Zimbabwe. On-time and on-schedule.
Thanks,
Drako
"so we produced a wallet to allow users simple way to receive and pay Dash" - To me this is like reinventing the wheel. There are already a half-dozen wallets that could be used, and Evolution is coming, which should make Dash even easier to use out of the box. Why did we fund another wallet?
"and also to get USD cash through an agent network." - paper currency through an app? Why not just use Tether? I don't get it. Is this the golden egg that makes this project so expensive? Paper currency still requires a user to show up somewhere and collect the currency. This is so unclear to me on how it will work or what value it will add.
"We are streamlining the remittance process as well so people can get access to Dash and feed our ecosystem" - What does "streamlining the remittance process" even mean? What does "feed our ecosystem" mean? What could be more streamlined than using Dash as it already is?
The name Kuvacash "is in line with and agreed by Dash Core" - DashCash would have been a better name in my opinion.
"This is not a simple project." - I agree. To me Kuvacash is expensive and esoteric, definitely not simple. I am concerned that its complexity has been used to obfuscate its lack of achievement.
Something should have been achieved for the 4183 Dash investment made by the DAO to date. What? And if the answer to that question is not simple, then I see no reason to continue funding.
Let me address your comments;
1. Regarding the wallets - although it is called a ‘Wallet’ the Kuva wallet has little in common with a raw crypto wallet. It is a BWS client (like CopPay and also includes functions to send Dash to phone contacts, scan-and-pay a funds request to a contact, book USD cash out via a Dash liquidation, receive a remittance (originating from a bank account payment) and put a remittance into Dash. It also includes a way to get Dash with cash (exchange connectivity). You can think of what you are saying like ‘why do we need Venmo, people already have bank accounts and credit cards! Evolution is another raw wallet - we will likely use it as well as our foundation when it comes out, but it does not provision many of the necessary solutions that people need to actually use the wallet. Hope you can see my point here.
2. Regarding availability of USD cash. In Africa, USD is king - like it or not, they have no idea what Dash is. All a business knows is that it has to pay a supplier in USD. All anyone else knows is that USD is ‘money’. This is our starting point. They have no idea what ‘Tether’ is (not that it solves anything for us or them at all) and so we have to meet peoples’ needs where they are right NOW to build traction. One of these critical needs, is the low availability of USD cash, and by making our solution enable that, we guerilla into the market such that people will enthusiastically use outback product. I have spoken many times on this - please watch the trailer that Frame 48 produced as it is one of the most lucid illustrations of the issue that we are solving for people.
3. This means that we need to enable people with our wallets getting hold of Dash, and making that process as easy as possible for them. So we allow people from other countries to remit funds directly to a Kuva wallet, which can then be stored in Dash. We do all the hard work (connecting to exchanges, taking their payment, settling balances etc) so that it becomes a no-brainer and we get our system full of Dash. It is because we have done our insight and developed around this; if it’s too hard a process people won’t do it. But if it’s easy as pie, solves a problem and saves them money, they will.
4. Thanks for your opinion, but we designed Kuva to suit the market in Zimbabwe and in Africa. It translates in Shona (phonetically) to ‘To Have’ and resonates very well with the market. We are there make sure people are free To Have like all people on this planet should be.
5. We are doing what we set out to do for next to nothing. Compare us with the cost or VC raise of any other similar system (Revolut, Uphold...)and you’ll be questioning how it is that we can manage our costs as we have done. It is also not an esoteric project at all - if you can write extensive questions as you have done, yet through the explanations, summaries and expansions then like most people here, you must be able to understand Kuvacash initiative and project.
As for our achievements - we have achieved all the network has paid us to achieve this far - you can see this from the numerous updates and via Dashwatch’s validation report. We’re producing a video this week to show the software end-to-end for those who are interested.
If despite all this clarity, you still do not understand what we are doing, I am always available to speak with to help you out, just PM me. Max Yoga on DN.
Thanks,
Drako
1. There is more information in your description in this paragraph than anything I have seen thus far, including the video and the dashwatch report combined. I would like to see this in action. I am sorry there is not a more professional demonstration video available now.
2. I have run a business in a hyper-inflation economy (Argentina 1989) and I understand the base currency is the dollare in such cases. I am still rather unclear how the wallet or other services you intend to offer will convert dollars to Dash or visa versa. I would love to see a demo.
3. This answers my question about "streamlining the remittance process".
4. This tells me why it is called Kuvacash. I doubt many others knew this before.
5. You compare Kuvacash to Revolt and Uphold. Projects like these ususally have investors and they must answer their investor's inquiries. It should be acceptable to do the same here in this forum, without making judgemental remarks about the person who requests more information or shows skepticism.
Thank you for being clear.
No worries, and I hope you will now support our project. You were not judged, but the note from Arthyron was that many of your questions had been already answered, multiple times. It is fine to ask these questions again, it’s all part of the way things work here.
To your note (2) we are producing a full demo video of the core user paths through the apps this week. This should show you how the conversion is done and what the service looks like between USD and Dash.
See below for note regarding investor alignment with incentices, I used the example of ‘similar’ not ‘exactly the same’ for that reason.
I hope that you will now support our launch, but let me know if you have any other questions.
Thanks,
Drako
Thanks, I sincerely appreciate the sentiment.
Demo video will be out in approx 1 week, and will be screen-recorded rather than ‘in-hand’. We will post it up here for everyone when it is complete.
Thanks,
Drako
Reposted the response to the investor question here because it seems to be getting buried in the discussion, and I think important to understand::
The summary for the key incentive mismatch (also explained in detail in the Dashwatch validation report interview video) is this; investors primarily expect profit/returns from Kuvacash primarily - and the MNO’s primarily expect sustainable adoption (as that is what would benefit Dash the most).
Not to mention getting profit out of Zimbabwe is difficult, but that’s not our primary aim since we align with the aims of MNO’s and the Dash community.
Thanks,
Drako
I am glad to see this. This is the best evidence I have seen that something has been created. I would like to see a more clear demonstration and explanation as to why this is a solution that Dash should be funding.
It's like you just found out this project existed and haven't bothered to look in to it up until this point. Literally every question you asked has already been answered ad-nauseum in previous updates.
The fact of the matter is that I watched the entire DashWatch interview video for two hours. That video sounded to me like a Dash MNO with an unclear business idea that we have funded.
The only reason I can think of to continue funding is not to take a loss on the 4183 Dash we have already spent (over a million USD when valued at an average Dash price since September), which is not a good reason in my opinion.
If anyone else came to us and asked for 1 million USD to develop a wallet, who would vote YES? If they asked for $456,000 USD more just to test and release the wallet, would you vote YES? I doubt that Core Team has invested that much in the Android wallet that I use every day and it already does everything that this proposal is boasting about as accomplishments - which we cannot really see or try out for ourselves, except perhaps for the video that I linked to that is NOT on the Kuvacash channel. The proposal owner hasn't even linked to that video!
KuvaCash is obviously much more than a wallet, and now I *know* you haven't bothered to avail yourself of all of this information over the last 9 months, derelict in your duties.
Also, a video taken at MoneyConf showing the same information is, in fact posted on their personal YouTube channel, the one they linked to was from a third party.
Kuvacash is one of the most expensive proposals we have seen to date and could fail to deliver even if we do support it further. There are no guarantees here. But, just pointing that out is enough to garner you a number of personal judgements like this one from Arthyron.
It absolutely could fail to deliver, and so could Core, or any other number of proposals, but if you vote against it just as they are about to launch, it absolutely *will* fail, and the same is not necessarily true of many of the other proposals that are seeking funding this round.
It has nothing to do with personal judgments, and everything to do with your approach and the content and nature and methodology of your assessments. You are not being fair or reasonable in your assessment of this proposal and you have not done your due diligence for which you are being paid to do as a Masternode Owner for the last 9 months in regards to this proposal which has continually been funded up to this point. That's on you. I don't have to know you or know anything about you personally to identify these behaviors.
We don’t expect anyone to watch the entire series of updates which we posted over almost 9 months. You can get all you need from the latest update video, and from the latest Dashwatch validation report, which takes you to July 2018. There is also an indexed video for questions raised by the community, and which needed to be answered in context.
I now think you have little in the way of business expertise. If nobody funded projects like ours, there would be no Uphold, Revolut etc - all are services and fintech service layers that bring to the consumer an easy and convenient experience that meets their needs. We have produced our entire initiative - not just a wallet, but a wallet, web applications, licenses, business partnerships, marketing program etc for this amount.
We are on the cusp of launch, with everything in place, on-schedule and as tracked by the network. I suggest you rethink your position, and come to the right side of the history we are making here.
Thanks,
Drako
I’m aware this may affect your own proposal, and that this is a thankless month for all proposal owners due to the DCG ask.
Please see below for our important announcement related to this, I have also reached out to you on Dash Nation.
Thanks,
Drako
I realise the issues you are experiencing. We have taken extreme cuts to our budget, this can be attested between our June and July financial projections we have published - it is no easy feat cutting 80k+ out of our operations, but it has to be done. We are at the cusp of launching in Zimbabwe what has been funded by the network, and we cannot put a pause on this - that is not how an operational initiative like Kuvacash works.
I also suggest that this is good time for your own initiative to consider what you can do - it is a very tough month. We don’t want to do budgetary comparisons between projects, but outreach can certainly scale down a lot easier than what we are able to do.
Note also that this pressure you are feeling is mainly due to two things; DCG’s ask which at over 4400 Dash is almost 6x ours, and the decline in the price of Dash. We are feeling this as well.
In any case, I do look forward to speaking with you next week on this if you are available.
Thanks,
Drako
thank you drako.
#itsapleasure
Thanks - yes I can confirm that we had an excellent call and are arranging a way forward for both of us.
Thanks Essra and D-A-CH, looking forward to our partnership and we will update the network shortly what that means for both proposals.
Drako
Make no mistake, that's what this proposal entails.
For those of you making the comparison between KuvaCash and the Venezuelan proposals, I think you're equivocating and I'll explain why. Kuva and VZ--beyond their specific details and idiosyncracies as projects individually or otherwise--represent something very important to Dash on a theoretical level. They represent two different approaches to the problem of achieving the fabled "mass adoption" we've been pursuing since the beginning of this project.
On the one hand, with VZ, we have a lot of small, grassroots movements working together. Mass Adoption has not yet been achieved, even if we're beginning to see the portents of it like in Rodrigo's recent documentary. With lots of people working at the local, regional, and national level, they've been able to achieve a lot of progress on the way to mass adoption, but for now, what we're paying for are stickers in windows and for people to sit in auditoriums. We're still a long ways off from mass adoption in VZ, but we've got a lot of great projects that given time could take off, and a more-or-less workable model for achieving results with grass-roots efforts in nations facing economic uncertainty.
On the other hand, with Kuva, we have a tech-oriented project that is utilizing existing infrastructure, regulation, and new technology to retrofit itself to a nation and market where we don't have much in the way of grassroots traction but is none the less ripe for the picking. This is a massive departure from the grassroots approach utilized in VZ, but it is one that has the *potential* to be just as successful or possibly more. The difference is that it's a more concentrated approach with one very large (potentially, of course) output, whereas VZ is a broad approach with many small outputs.
Obviously with a grassroots approach, you're going to see a much quicker uptake of smaller accomplishments. It's likely that conferences, and meetups and giveaways will be nominally successful, and that's not to discount the people in VZ who are working very hard and doing great things, but you have to take in to account the nature of the work being done. If the end result is achieving mass adoption, we're no where near that even in VZ, even if there are some very concentrated pockets that are well on their way.
A cursory glance at Dash Watch shows that we've probably spent over a million dollars toward the efforts in Venezuela, and it's likely going to take millions of dollars in additional spending to eventually get VZ to the place of mass adoption if we ever get there. All in all, this is pretty similar to the spending on Kuva.
So what this boils down to is which approach or model will ultimately be successful for the price-point? More than the actual proposals and projects themselves, this is the hidden value of these proposals, because they represent two distinct possibilities as prototypes for Dash's movements and expansions in to different markets.
So for the sake of the network--not to mention all the work and resources that has gone in to KuvaCash already--we need to ensure that this proposal passes so we can actually see what it is capable of. If it turns out that it doesn't pan out, then it doesn't pan out and we'll know that it's better to stick to grassroots projects and leave the development to Core. However, if it does work out, it could be the biggest non-Core project in terms of expanding the reach and success of Dash yet.
We ought to see it through at least to the pilot. After that, we will be able to actually determine whether or not it's a project we ought to continue funding.
We’re on the cusp of launching, on-schedule and having done what we set out to do so far. I hope people will support us to finally get this into Zimbabwe and Africa,
I think there are definitely individuals trying to derail us right at the end...makes little sense.
Thanks,
Drako
Kuva's already talked about some of their partnerships which would open up and directly foist Dash in to the hands of thousands of people at once. Furthermore, because of the technology and platform that Kuva has *already developed,* there's no ambiguity or learning curve when it comes to trying to *get* Dash in order to spend it, everything is built in to the platform ready to go.
It's the difference between building an ecosystem piece by piece organically in a market over time vs. airdropping and grafting in a working ecosystem in to an existing market, two completely diffferent things. Both have enormous potential, but the difference is, many of the other projects won't die if they go without funding for a month and render millions of dollars in previous funding in to a loss.
It's absurd to fund this project all the way to its projected release and then refuse to allow it to be released when we knew where it was going, how it was going to get there, and what it was going to take. We've known about this for months. We've chosen to take it this far, and now when we finally have a chance to see what it can do when we fire it up, why would we decide to throw it in the dumpster?
It may be discovered that "payment processors" have no incentive to do the ground work for Dash, and signing such an agreement is just for show or to receive a hidden payment. We may all cheer the partnership, but months later, we may discover that the DAO is left holding an empty bag of promises. You have no way to back up the claim that an agreement with a "payment processor" will in fact "foist Dash into the hands of thousands of people at once".
Grassroots projects having "done a lot more for the ecosystem" is not a dubious metric. One business more accepting Dash is one more advocate for our currency. It represents more real people who will help others to get started with Dash. It leads to more and more members of the Dash Nation. Comparing that to the possibility of a partnership with a big "payment processor", I prefer something tangible and real, albeit small, over something possible but not yet accomplished and completely uncertain. I especially prefer this while our budget is so lean because it costs a lot less and is less risky.
"It is abusrd to ... refuse to allow this project to be released" - actually we have already paid over a million dollars. If that is not enough to see this project to its end, then we have already overpaid, in my opinion.
They should release their wallet now so we can see what we have already paid for. Why not show us the source code for this wallet they have developed? How can we be sure that what we have paid for is not a copy of existing source code with a new look pasted on top? Is it too much to ask for to see why this wallet is so much better than other wallets, so innovative in its concept, that it requires two pilot runs at a cost of $456,00 USD before it can be released?
People are used to using money as a store and method of transacting value. They're used to certain forms, have saved the value they've accrued in those forms, have access to certain forms. Dash represents a new form, a new way of doing so, but in order to use Dash, people have to have a way of converting their old forms to new forms that more or less jive with the extant infrastructure, technology, regulations, and customs in any particular market. More than that, they also have to have a sufficient incentive to disrupt their old, extant patterns and algorithms to try something new. Obviously people in places like Venezuela and Zimbabwe have a great deal more incentive than elsewhere, but the infrastructure still isn't there. Even if you onboard hundreds more merchants, the infrastructure still isn't there. People have to have a way to bridge the gap between these disparate ways of storing and transacting value. That's what KuvaCash does, and what we need everywhere, including Venezuela.
The fact that you dismiss a partnership with a "payment processor" shows you don't understand how any of this works. You can onboard one merchant and that's one place at which people can spend Dash. You can onboard a thousand merchants and that's a thousand places people can spend Dash. If you integrate a large payment processor, that's thousands if not millions of places people can spend Dash. That's the difference here, one small shop at a time vs. thousands. Both have their place, both are important, and true mass adoption will require both, but just having one is not going to do the job unless we want to spend ten times as much trying to win a country over one shop at a time. That's why Dash Core Group has been pursuing these larger integrations and partnerships they have been the last year or two.
Comparing these two approaches is not a dubious metric because grassroots initiatives are bad or ineffective, comparing these two approaches is a dubious metric because they're fundamentally different things, apples and oranges. What you prefer has no bearing on how things actually work. Obviously something actually beneficial is preferable over something that is definitely not beneficial, but we haven't reached a point at which you can reasonably say that KuvaCash is not beneficial. If they're put to the test and their pilot flops, sure, then the difference is clear, but that's not what is happening here.
We have also spent over a million dollars toward the efforts in Venezuela when everything is factored in (advertising, etc). So far it hasn't had much of an effect on the price or use of Dash either. I don't count that against the Venezuelan proposals because I understand that efforts of this magnitude take a lot of time and a lot of money to come to fruition, but your bias toward grassroots efforts is keeping you from fairly evaluating the scope and purpose and potential of these proposals. They're coming from completely different angles toward the same goal.
You've already demonstrated a lack of even a basic understanding of what this project is trying to accomplish by your own admission. Thus, you have no business assessing whether or not its funding has been sufficient for the task unless you're trying to invoke some arbitrary spending limit on what is necessary or prudent for any project at all, which is obviously its own kind of irrationality.
Kuva has already explicitly committed to showcasing their product soon and explicitly stated as such above. Are you just not reading the responses while continually making demands or what?
Irrational?
The presentation is clear, tangible, and worthy of continued investment and all but the latter attribute (which is more subjective), they're just delivered in such a way that assumes that you've actually been paying attention at all to the last 9 months of funding rounds this project has gone through. You've consistently demonstrated that you have not. This is not the fault or responsibility of KuvaCash. This rests on you and you alone.
If other MNOs share the same perspective, I will offer the same critcisims of their arguments and questions because they too have been derelict in their duties. There are several other MNOs who have offered reasonable, intelligent, knowledgeable criticisms or questions in this very proposal thread, and I have not debated with them because my problem is not with criticisms or questions in themselves but in the disingenuous, irresponsible, and irrational behaviors that sometimes inform them.
If your questions and criticisms demonstrated a full, working knowledge of the proposal, its scope, its budget, its communications to the community and Dash Watch, the market in which it intends to operate, and the other relevant facts about the proposal and minimal bias--as many other commenters in this thread have done--we wouldn't be having this conversation.
2. We have seen the technology. Where have you nay-sayers been all this time? Have you not bothered to watch the videos? The technology exists, it was demoed publicly at MoneyConf in Dublin and previously in various update videos. Members of DCG were there when it was demoed. DashWatch has reviewed the products first hand themselves and confirmed that they're real. Kuva will also be doing a screen-capped demo of their products soon. I'm getting tired of MNOs not doing their job and making arguments from ignorance.
3.How do we know we desperately need it? Because for all the grassroots efforts around the world--like I said in my initial post--all we've really accomplished is the *potential* for increased use. This hasn't actually translated in to substantially increased use. Why is that? It's because we haven't built the entire ecosystem. Onboarding merchants--for example--is an important step, but if no one has Dash to spend at them, if no one knows how to spend Dash at them, no one knows that they can spend Dash at them, and no one has an incentive to spend Dash at them instead of hodling, it won't matter that merchants accept Dash. All those other pieces need to be filled in before a complete ecosystem takes form and begins to live and breathe and grow. Kuva's platform provides the entire infrastructure ready to go in an accessible way that embeds itself in an existing market according to its regulations and customs. It provides all the necessary tools and accessibility to facilitate all these processes that can be duplicated in any region in the world (pending regulatory approval, of course).
If it's successful in Zimbabwe, that platform could easily be adapted and transplanted to other markets. Imagine if Kuva's platform were being developed for Venezuela instead of Zimbabwe. I know that Kuva has not explicitly planned to branch in to LatAm and instead wants to branch in to other African regions, but imagine if that platform was available for use in Venezuela. It would single-handedly solve all those hurdles and obstacles to mass adoption that the current Venezuelan efforts face.
Ultimately, we will need both grassroots and technological efforts in any market to truly reach a state of mass adoption, and every market will likely require millions of dollars of funding to penetrate and get truly established, but the advantage with technological solutions is you don't have to wait for things to spread organically, you don't have to rely on the performance of hundreds of individual actors doing their very specific jobs, you don't have to coordinate dozens of different groups with their own goals and needs and funding requirements.
Kuva's solution has a lot going for it, and Dash would be making a tremendous mistake allowing it to go untested.
If the Kuvacash wallet is such an amazing solution to the problem of adoption, let us see the wallet up close, all of its features! What features are so special with this wallet that adoption of Dash is practically ensured by its release? What features are so unique that two test runs will cost $456,000 USD now and almost certainly even more three months from now?
You're speaking from a place of idealism with no basis in reality or data. We aren't yet seeing what you describe born out in actuality. I believe we will long-term as well, but not without these other key pieces of infrastructure, which is exactly what Kuva is providing. I already addressed the issue of their product above several times, and Kuva's team has too. Read.
If you want transactions on the network to prove it, let me state two things: 1) it has been proven from different Latin America projects that transactions have increased from certain countries here. Downloads of the Android wallet have increased significantly across Latin America. Can the same be said for Zimbabwe? 2) my own project provided 3,000 transactions per day to people around the world, but mostly in Venezuela. Funding dried up due to us spending our treasury on vastly more expensive projects. Yesterday, the entire network of Dash only did a paultry 5635 transactions. (source https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/dash-transactions.html#3m)
Transactions have increased and wallet downloads have increased across Latin America. Great, by how much, and what actual impact has this had on network usage? To what meaningful effect? Of course the same cannot be said for Zimbabwe because the project has not yet launched and you're baselessly arguing that it never should, thereby begging the question.
Funding didn't dry up because we spent it on expensive projects. It dried up because the market is down.
Yes, your project was a great project as a smart faucet, but smart faucets and a few merchants are not *all* we need for where Dash is going. KuvaCash represents another approach that can fill in the gaps left by grassroots efforts and it needs to have its day in court so that the network can determine whether that approach to expansion in to new markets and territories is a worthwhile one. The difference is it requires most of its funding up front before it launches and then viably plans to be self-sufficient after that point if the project is successful. Grassroots efforts can be funded as they go, but they will always need more and more funding, which coincidentally your initial accusation against KuvaCash.
We have found a foothold already. Cut our losses and aim our power where it is working.
Africa isn't going anywhere and we are currently stretched too thin.
Voting no.
We have an open-source program we are launching under openkuva shortly. We had to build a native wallet and BWS client since following the exit from the Dash CoPay build, most of what was out there was not suitable for us. This was done over the last 2 months, at accelerated schedule.
We’re past feature-parity with the old CoPay build now, will Ben producing a demo video next week for the network of our software.
Let me know if you have any other questions
Thanks,
Drako
Can we debate the facts please, not speculate about scams and people’s motives? That would be great, thanks.
Thanks for your support, it is very much appreciated and this is what we are at the point of now. We’ll not disappoint.
Thanks,
Drako
It’s not possible for us to just ‘pause’ Kuvacash. It would be the same question to ask Core or any other org that is running. We have ongoing commitments which means we can’t up and park the project. We have already re-scoped considerably in light of available funds.
These funds are for launch, the network has funded us to produce what we are about to launch. We have done so on-schedule. Without this funding, like any other funded org (for example, VC funding of a business), we will need to make preparations to wind up. I don’t think that is understood very well here.
Thanks,
Drako
Note that we have had to scale back considerably, as above. Recent price pressure has not been good for any proposal owner including ourselves.
Please read Arthyron’s post below, also our important announcement post, these give the necessary perspective.
We are on-schedule and require this funding to progress this through to launch, and if we are defunded we must consider winding up, or other options which effectively ends the Kuvacash project.
Happy to answer your further questions, I hope you can support our initiative to get this landed in Sept.
Thanks,
Drako
Thanks for your comment and suggestion. We’ve cut what we can and on top of this have price pressure that cuts almost all out contingency. We have as lean a team as is possible for the launch, in fact must take on additional operations staff now for launch, as you can understand.
The DAO has let us do what we have done so far with Kuvacash - investors have other incentives that don’t match with ours, I have discussed this in detail on the latest Dashwatch validation report video interview.
We are in talks with other proposal owners now, to see what can be done and ensure this project is not stopped when it’s about to launch.
Thanks,
Drako
The summary for the key incentive mismatch (also explained in detail in the video) is this; investors primarily expect profit/returns from Kuvacash primarily - and the MNO’s primarily expect sustainable adoption (as that is what would benefit Dash the most).
Not to mention getting profit out of Zimbabwe is difficult, but that’s not our primary aim since we align with the aims of MNO’s and the Dash community.
Thanks,
Drako
Not sure what your question is or what you are trying to imply.
Of course we are planning for revenue, from day one, and in fact to be eventually cashflow positive. But the difference in incentives is that our aim is not to ‘return to investors’ but to ‘land Dash as a money system’ in Zimbabwe, sustainably.
Does that answer your question?
Thanks,
Drako
To our fellow MNO’s and community members:
We realise that given over 4400 Dash is now likely going to Dash Core Group that this month is very contentious. We are not happy about having been thrown in the ring with other proposals that also deserve funding given less than 23% remains of the budget for allocations.
But it is necessary to realise this; Kuva cannot flex its required funding requirements down any further - to do so would put our own commitments at risk. We are already well into our contingency given our projections, and 760 Dash were at the $240 price - so this has removed almost all contingency now. We cannot afford to be defunded at this stage of development - nor can we ‘park’ Kuvacash. We now have critical momentum and over 30 people involved in delivering this project - defunding would cause us the need to wind it up, as this would also incur costs and careful management of our own personal reputations in relation to the project, with others who are committed around us.
The network has paid us to deliver software, licenses and the requisite business structure on-schedule, and we have delivered. Last-hour defunding just prior to launch, for which we are ready for now does not seem rational, and I hope that people can see that. We have been above and beyond transparent with all that we do, I’m wondering if there isn’t some sort of ‘never try, never fail’ fatalism going on by certain members that will derail what has been a successful and on-target run towards accessing one of the most obvious opportunities for landing Dash in the world, bringing it to Zimbabwe where fiat has failed and we can now take the mantle.
As always, I am happy to speak with people on an individual basis, to answer any questions and give further context, just PM me (Max Yoga on DN)
Thanks,
Drako and Team Kuva
********
I don't get the mentality that it's make or break, why can't a project go in power down mode ? Other projects have been able to do so
Questtion 1a)
If it was really the case that why on earth did you not cash in to USD as soon as you got the funds ? It seems like totally mismanaged risk management
To answer your question, take an example - when a funded business or initiative ceases to be funded, it usually will wind up. There are a lot of moving parts and commitments we have made and it just isn’t realistic to expect that the project will somehow ‘park’ or ‘power down’. This isn’t a few people writing software part time or doing outreach in their spare time, it is a sophisticated organisation, business structure and project that has momentum, ongoing costs/commitments and involves a multitude of third parties.
2. This question has been answered multiple times, but once more for this new proposal; for one, community members and MNO’s state that they don’t like it when proposals just liquidate their Dash outright, as it would affect the market around pay-out time sharply. Secondly, some of our staff, including James and myself, are paid in Dash, so we need to retain it to pay ourselves. Thirdly, we have been very careful with funds and risk management around our proposal funding - this is why we have operated for over 8 months and not returned for exchange losses. It is a prudent method to manage your treasury in this way. And we’ve also had the situation recently where the calculated amount we required for a period dropped in price over the proposal funding period - all these are issues faced by all proposal owners, but arguably we’ve actually managed very well over the long-term bear market.
Hope this answers your questions,
Thanks,
Drako
Another point: Did the Kuvacash team fly to Dublin? If so, who paid for that? Did they fly to Los Angeles for interviews with Frame48? Who paid for that?
What about responsibly spending treasury funds? What about proving that goals have been achieved for the funding already spent?
Being in constant communication with DashWatch is not saying much, as DashWatch just reports to MNOs what the proposal owner claims. Do you really think that DashWatch asks the tough questions?
Kuva's budget and expenditures are all detailed in their reports available on Dash Watch. Do your job.
The details of the Frame48 Documentary are part of their own proposal. That team chose Kuva as its initial subject because it was timely, but planned to document other projects and regions as well.
Kuva has already proven that they have achieved every goal and milestone they have outlined. They've been among the most transparent, forthcoming, and communicative projects with DashWatch out there.
If you had bothered to actually read the DW reports instead of using leading questions as rhetorical assertions, you would see that Kuva has completely opened their books to DW.
If you have problems with or questions about the performance or validity of DW, that's about DW, not Kuva.
You are not asking reasonable questions or placing reasonable expectations here. Why would you do that? (see how easy that was?)
The proposal owner has answered some of my questions, but I find his answers to be unfocused. Read my follow up to his answers. I can draw my own conclusions with the time I have to dedicate to this proposal, and frankly, I have already spent more time here than on any other proposal.
"If you had bothered to actually read the DW reports instead of using leading questions as rhetorical assertions" - I have already read the DW report (most recent) and watched a 2 hour video of responses by Drako. Over a million dollars spent by the DAO and we cannot ask tough questions? It is ridiculous.
You don't find his answers to be unfocused, you just want him to do your work for you. This has already been established. Their team has done what has been required of them and more, all the information is there in palatable forms both visual and textual. The only hindrance is your refusal to take the time to do your job. All this time you've wasted explaining why you don't need to do your job could have been spent watching their videos or reading their documents and we wouldn't need to continue this conversation.
You've spent more time here than I've seen you ever spend on any proposal besides your own, and it's all been justifying why you won't do the job that so many others of us have been able to do. I spend more time on every proposal and pre-proposal than you've spent on this proposal. Suck it up. Do the job you're paid to do.
You're not asking *tough* questions, you're asking questions that already have answers because you're too lazy and biased to do due diligence. Catch yourself up and *then* by all means ask legitimately tough questions and make legitimate critcisms. All you've said so far that has any merit is you think this proposal is too expensive for what we're getting which is a claim that might have merit if it was coming from someone that actually took the time to understand the project and had specific reasons or evidence to substantiate this assertion, of which you are neither. Yes, it's an expensive project, and it's also doing some pretty substantial work, and to put things in perspective so far we've only spent on Kuva what we've been spending monthly or bi-monthly on Core, who are consequently also doing the same kind of work on a larger scale (software development, business development, integrations, regulatory compliance, etc). Imagine that.
"too lazy and biased to do due diligence" - I am not so biased that I resort to calling others "lazy" or claiming that they "lack basic knowledge".
You complain that they haven't launched, and then when they want to launch you don't want to let them. Hmm.
That's not what biased means, and I never said you lacked "basic knowledge," I said you lacked knowledge and you demonstrably do both of how economies function, how payment processors work, and by your own admission of the basic details of this proposal and what it entails, so I'm not sure why you're blaming me for pointing this out as a reason that your criticisms are disingenuous and unwarranted.
I was okay with supporting small African projects here and there, but this is too much. I'm also in general against Dash paying for other people's businesses.
Dash shouldn't have to pay people to use Dash and start Dash businesses which they themselves will benefit from. The treasury is for development and promotion primarily in my view.
Adding my 12 no votes to yours.
Do you want the projects we fund to become self-sufficient or not? Do you want literally every project we fund to come back to the trough month after month to continue functioning or do you want to fund projects that are eventually able to stand on their own and keep supporting the network for perpetuity? You can't have it both ways. Pick one.
Colonisation by Europeans has yielded many benefits to African nations. The populations have exploded via supplies of cleaner water, farming practices, plumbing, electricity, vehicles, medicines, computers, western based societal structures, computers and blockchain tech brought about mainly by people carrying on the legacy of western societies culture of invention.
The extracted resources from African soils are but one part of the picture, and yes, at times it can be extremely exploitive. No different though, to exploitative practices by Africans themselves over slaves and resources.
Generally, the main killers of African people across the world are other people of African descent. African governments are notorious for outlandish corruption. I don't give passes to thieves, no matter what their race.
Colonisation by one African tribe over another tribes land has no doubt been taking place over thousands of years. The Zulu for example, take no prisoners. Despite the attempt by the English to eradicate slavery, it is still maintained in some places by Berbers and Arabs. Africans themselves have been slave traders, and slave masters no doubt. (not all..as per everything).
Slavic (slaves) have been a significant part of the slavery equation.
Indeed, my ancestors were surely serfs (serves), whom lead lives no better than many slaves from about the world historically.
I would certainly love to see the gift more western culture centric technology, such as ventures funded by the Dash treasury, making for even more positive differences within the African landscape.
This is not an expensive project, and we have been delivering against our schedule.
I hope you will consider in light of the progress we have made - also, note that we are doing things the RIGHT way, not paying 'trillions' in charity for no result other than making people dependent on it - but taking a totally different approach. We are providing a money system based on Dash that people can use to live and do business with; in short, an enabler for their life not a handout.
I hope you will reconsider in light of this, we have been working to deliver everything needed to implement this launch over the last 8 months, and we're now on the eve of our launch. As I mentioned to DashRipRock, consider being on the right side of history here.
Thanks,
Drako
You are also quite mistaken with respect to us having a 'masternode' to sell. For 25 days while we ramped up, we parked funds in a MN which was then liquidated when we were actually up and runnning.
We have never set up another MN since, nor would we do so if we had the funds, as we're in full swing now.
Thanks,
Drako
Either view/read the answers or quit spamming.
If you are suggesting that we now not launch Kuvacash in Zimbabwe, you're going to find yourself on the wrong side of not just history, but also what most MNO's expect the Kuva team to do.
Kuvacash was paid for by the network, delivered by an elite team over 8 months, on-schedule, transparently and attested/validated in July by one of the largest Dashwatch reports ever created for a project. This is in addition to our own updates and Q&A's, and historic Kuvacash Dashwatch reports.
We are now moving to launch Kuvacash in Zimbabwe and make the network proud, as per our schedule. I think you might find that your position is quite baffling to me and most other MNO's here.
Thanks,
Drako
I feel that you are now starting to spam this proposal.
Anyone that has a Dash masternode has skin in Kuvacash, since when we land Dash in Zimbabwe we will have achieved a historic outcome and the price of Dash would likely reflect that.
Of course I have invested my own funds in Kuva, and I believe that everyone should have skin in the game for their projects - not that it is a prerequisite for posting a project on here.
Also, it is clear you have never participated in an update or read a single report from Kuvacash. We are developing a remittances and P2P payments platform primarily, and then moving into merchant services. It appears that you are grasping at straws to criticise the project, to what end?
Thanks,
Drako
The result is that we have built apps and software, business partnerships, become regulated to the highest tier and are ready to operate in Zimbabwe. As per our plan, and on-schedule.
Kuva is now moving to launch. As would be expected by all other MNO’s here. We are a leveraged proposition, and therefore quite different to the grassroots efforts in Venezuela. Are you saying that the only way to launch Dash in a country is what has been done so far in Venezuela? And because of your opinion, Kuva should therefore not launch in Zimbabwe?
Because that doesn’t make sense.
Thanks,
Drako
If they aren’t funded there is no launch.
We need to support Kuva right now so they can run the pilot.
This is a no-brainer.
It seems like you have not actually watched any of our 6 update videos or the ongoing multiple reports and validation from Dashwatch. The very latest one is a full attestation and validation of financials, Kuvacash software working on Livenet, licenses etc? I'm guessing not. Here it is for your convenience:
https://dashwatch.org/files/1532801904838.pdf
This is funding to LAUNCH Kuvacash now, because we actually have delivered the software, licenses and partnerships required for us to do so on-schedule and with a well-managed budget. The treasury have not pumped millions into this project at all, you are very misinformed, clearly you have not kept up to date with the project. Full financials show just on 1M USD, for an team working AND delivering for the DAO over the last 8 months.
I suggest actually start engaging with the Kuvacash project, read the reports and understand the progress we have made. Kuvacash is a key strategic initiative for Dash, and it is about to be put into the hands of people who need it. You might want to be on the right side of history here.
Thanks,
Drako
Have you followed the project at all, or watched and read the many updates?
Dashriprock, it takes research, signing of deals, govt licenses, back-end and legal structures to land a big project like Kuva in Zimbabwe (and beyond).
The team have hit ALL milestones. Just ask the Dash Watch team who did the latest audit.
I've taken the liberty to provide a direct link to the shiny Kuvacash wallet demo (below) if anyone wants to see it functioning (~3 and a half minutes in).
https://youtu.be/yjVUk66qNXM?t=3m37s
The guys are ready for the pilot, calling for a defund now would be absolutely ridiculous, whatever your reasons.
Let’s put some thought into what we are saying, instead of spamming on repeat.
You aren’t interested in answers to your questions, you are only interested in spamming and trying to torpedo a proposal for your own personal reasons...