Proposal “Kuvacash-Pilot-Launch-Funding“ (Closed)Back

Title: Kuvacash - DOWNVOTE PLEASE NEW PROPOSAL POSTED
Owner:kuvateam
Monthly amount: 760 DASH (120828 USD)
Completed payments: no payments occurred yet (3 month remaining)
Payment start/end: 2018-08-17 / 2018-11-15 (added on 2018-08-03)
Final voting deadline: in passed
Votes: 132 Yes / 452 No / 71 Abstain

Proposal description

Kuvacash Pilot Launch Funding (Base 003)

****NOTE - DOWNVOTE PLEASE**

New proposal here:

https://www.dashcentral.org/p/KUVACASH-RESTRUCTURED-LAUNCH-PROPOSAL


Please downvote this proposal, as the above restructured proposal has now been posted.

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Discussion: Should we fund this proposal?

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6 points,2 months ago
I apologise. I do not want to be conspiracy theory enabling anything. It is not good for sure and I apologize deeply, the debate needs to be sound and focused on real usage and real situations. I just think it comes down to a matter of principle. The blockchain community is about decentralisation and freedom of choice. Kuvacash is a step towards centralisation, and I do not like any centralization of anything. It will however improve peoples lives on the ground from the current situation to start with, that is for sure. However it is not a free application. It is a regulated application, closed source and with agreements to operate within the sphere of the banking-sector(hence centrlised), awesome you might say, and I did too for one full year I have supported this project, but its a kind of middle ground for crypto. Yes crypto will be used to do some transactions, amazing but it still caters to using FIAT which is what the blockchain tech in the end is trying to opt out from. All I am saying is that if we make a traditional fintech app which is what we have here, with experts, great, then we get traditional fintech results. Why dont the government of zim say hey we support crypto and protect it with this law, all trades in crypto will be supported. No that is not the case, but that is what every blockchain project should aim for. "The idea that a grass roots approach is just a fantasy, it is not based on the evidence so far". How about venezuela? It can and will work if there are good teams put down to the effort. Sure dash.org is beeing blocked, but that is just real good evidence that it is working very well. Money should be put to educate people, bring merchants onboard. USD is king? People should be able to choose their own kings whichever they want, kuwacash will allow for 2 options, dash and usd, where dash is an 'advanced option', horrible in my opinion, ideally they should be allowed all options with open-source apps that they can install whichever they want and choose whichever crypto you want, and change between them in a decentralized way too, if they choose dash, great good for them, but it needs to be a free market, and competition on equal grounds (ideally without the need of shoveling money into regulating laws because that means only the already rich can decide and compete), like in venezuela people are using all kinds of crypto, or papermoney if they want, that is the way to go. Democratize and decentralize open-source and free market everything or go home. If we had put all this money towards merchant dash onboarding with a good team the situation would have been different in zim as well. I mean why are we here? To spread and support the use of the king USD/dash in regulated properitary software approved by the current fintech sector or the spread the use of the king Free-to-choose-whatever you want-Crypto? I mean crypto is not supposed to be a transportation device for FIAT it is supposed to be its own entity, and as I see it this project is just enabling the storage of USD and using crypto as a transportation device (where it is also using other forms of ERC-20 tokens? in the remittance) and other style of complex setups to basically integrate it into a fiat style app where the 'advanced' option is to do a dash transfer. The network and project dash should promote dash more explicitly and also tell people about blockchain. I whish I could edit my previous comment and I would if I could, it was a bit extreme, we dont need to fight this kuvacash 'with all means possible', when one think of it, dash is also a centralised entity in many ways with ruling power beeing centralised to a small group of individuals with money, just like the fiat-printers,so... its just that I am not sure USD will be that amazing for people in the end either, of course anything better than the zim previous currency, its just that the project 'usd' is quite a powerful entity now one and I think all those 'fiat projects' needs to have some competition and to equalize things over time and enable to choose their own store of value, to something that does not crash or devalue over time, hence my reaction. The more choises the better in some ways, and perhaps kuvacash is one good project to start with, but I think enough money has been spent in this project for now without results. Blockchain is to give power to people, lets work to make that happen, that is the most important, no matter dash or any other forms.
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2 points,2 months ago
How do you think that value enters the cryptocurrency space? If it's not coming from the conventional stores of value, it's not coming at all. If it *is* coming, then that is transmission of money and it will be scrutinized by regulators. If you are moving money under the scrutiny of regulators, then you have to play by their rules...at least until it moves beyond their ability to effectively scrutinize (i.e. from Fiat to Dash).

What's wrong with fintech results? Dunno if you've taken a look at the markets lately, but Dash could use some fintech results. More on-ramps from fiat to Dash is a fantastic thing for Dash as it allows Dash the opportunity to demonstrate its superiority in a number of use cases.

Complaining about what Zimbabwe's government does is irrelevant, the point is to provide a service to a particular market and demographic. We can't make regulators do what we want, but we can do what we want within their regulations to achieve benefits for ourselves.

The "grassroots" argument has been addressed ad-nauseum below. The network is not much better off now than it has been previously in terms of actual use of Dash. Onboarding merchants isn't by itself enough. It's going to take millions more expenditure in Venezuela to achieve anything resembling "mass adoption." KuvaCash is an attempt toward the same goal from a different angle.

The rest of this is just a convoluted stream-of-consciousness that repeats ideological rhetoric without really having any actual point other than the propagation of that ideological rhetoric.

At the end of the day, what matters is whether or not this will enhance the value of Dash and its ability to carry out the goals of the network or if it won't, both immediately and long term. If it's a successful model--unlike grassroots efforts--it's much easier to transplant this in to other regions as it requires much less work and personnel to carry it out, as most of the development work and costs are handled up front. Additionally, grassroots work can be used to bolster or augment it as well, the two are not mutually exclusive, but they *are* mutually exclusive if this project is not allowed to come to fruition. Then it's just a waste of a million dollars, like buying a sports car and then taking it to a junk yard without ever trying to drive it.
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6 points,2 months ago
coop update || for those who followed the conversation below: drako and me had some conversations about a possible coop for this month and in future. good talks but we haven´t found a solution for this month budget cycle. as the dash embassy d-a-ch hasn´t been funded the last two month, we are completely out of money and are not able to lower our ask in this month to support kuva. we (embassy) are willing to scale down in future (as we already did in the past), but first we need to pay for our liabilities and outstanding debts, everything else would break our necks.

@drako: I wish you all the best and really hope this project will happen, but maybe you need to skip 1 or 2 cycles (as we did) or work with your fiat leftovers mentioned in the current dash watch report.
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-6 points,2 months ago
As above - posted as reply:

Update with regards to cooperation between proposal owners for this funding cycle.

We have ongoing conversations where other proposal owners were involved, including DACH, and where all were to lower their asks for this month. We are working with Core and others to see how we can continue to see Kuva through to launch (and see important proposals that cannot be paused funded).

Unfortunately although DACH initially indicated that they could lower their ask for the month by scaling activities, they feel confident that they will not need to this month, having collected votes enough to be near or passing the threshold.

We are not pleased at this but of course will continue our cooperative endeavours with other proposal owners such that our work and that of others is not disrupted in this voting cycle.

@Essra, as you are aware Kuva do NOT have accessible fiat remaining to take the risk on for launch, but what is indeed possible is for your team to look at cost reductions this month, which we know is possible. It may be worth sharing specifics with the community, so they can decide for themselves whether there is value in your more ancillary cost-center activities, or whether you should restructure your proposal.


Thanks,
Drako
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
The idea of blockchain is to free people from the banks and regulators, not to entangle regulatory fin-tech apps around an already existing and working blockchain. I have changed my mind about this product. It needs to be scrapped and faught with all means possible. Blockchain needs to be a grass-roots movement, not a regulatory movement. This product endangers satoshis original vision and my vision for what blockchain should be. There is no insight to the NDA agreements which could include anything. Looking at the head of product development which basically is Goldman Sachs product dev https://www.soliduslabs.com/ I think its safe to say this is not a blockchain wallet but a bank-ripple style wallet transferring USD backed by guns with the option to switch to dash which ultimately no user will do even if the actual transfer happens on the dashchain, most people will still hold value in usd. Voting definetely NO.
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1 point,2 months ago
This is what I mean when I frequently talk about idealism and dogmatism. Who cares what "Satoshi's vision" was or what Evan Duffield's was, for that matter? They're not gods and this isn't a religion. Literally all that matters--as determined by voting and market forces--is what our collective vision for Dash is, what we're actually able to accomplish toward that end, and how the market receives it. Anything beyond that is irrelevant.
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-2 points,2 months ago
Fellow MNOs. Projects like Kuvacash and Core programming development, are exactly what we should be funding during this extended downturn.

Spending even a single dollar on PR, marketing, sponsorships and meet ups during this time is a complete and utter waste of time and money.

No one advertises their worst performing stocks during bear markets. Funds only ever advertise their top performers. Why? Because new customers will never ever part with a single dollar to invest in a space when all they can see is market caps sliding down day after day.

Big marketing spends and hype only work on the way up. You can’t convince the average man on the street that something which has been tanking for the last 6 months is actually a really successful project, and that they should buy some Dash and be part of it.
In their view, if things were going well, then surely the price would be going up.

The Kuvacash team have an understanding of what it takes to land Dash in Zimbabwe. It’s not a conspiracy (such as MNO ‘reasonably’ states below) that they choose to roll out with the ability to peg to USD within the wallet. This is what needs to be done to land Dash in Zimbabwe, because in Zim USD is King. The added benefit, is that the extended crypto bear market will have no effect on adoption of the Kuvacash wallet, which is perfect for pilot roll out. When the market turns around again, then users will be enticed to invest an amount of their holdings in Dash.

Also, re: MNO ‘reasonably’ comment about Solidus.
Hiring people with skills and experience is not a bad thing, (and nothing to do with ripple and bankers?). So please pack up your fringe / paranoid conspiracy theories, we can do without them in the Dash community, especially if we want to achieve mainstream adoption.

The idea that a grass roots approach is just a fantasy, it is not based on the evidence so far. Just ask Tungfa to confirm again. He has access to the web stats for Africa.

Venezuela is going through some issues right now. I hear rumours of dash.org domain being blocked for the country (could someone from Venezuela please confirm?).

Any serious roll out needs to be done within the regulations of a country, and with a licence to operate. This is the only way forward for mainstream adoption. All large international crypto exchanges are now fully compliant, doing full KYC and AML on customers and their funds. This is the future and the way forward.

I hope the Kuvacash team can work something out with Core and other proposal owners, because this project is something truly unique to Dash. These guys are a highly calibrated team who have the experience and talent required to actually deliver Dash into Africa.

I’m looking forward to the latest video demo of the Kuvacash wallet, as I am sure it will silence many of the naysayers and doubters.

Voting YES!
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0 points,2 months ago
Look forget it, I would speculate that you have masternodes that you can sell to fund this. At least I know you have one masternode and most likely several. So take some of that, or offer shares in the company to the network. The behaviour of not beeing transparent earlier on, creating masternodes etc still lingers.. there should be an investigation to see how the funds actually have been used. I require full transparency on how much each person in the team has earned on this project and how much hast been paid to each authority etc. preferably along with bank-statements if such exists or at least dash-transactions made. You can launch next month or whenever, but this payout train stops right here. No more secret deals with secret parties.
Who are the Operations Director and staff to support launch for example? Show more faces more transaprency more product demos. I can agree that you deserve a very high salary and so forth but all that needs to be transparent+all other salaries. I want a full accounting report of all the months, and all the expenses etc in an excel sheet linked with dash transactions and or receipts etc before we proceed any further with this.
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-1 point,2 months ago
Hi reasonably,

There was actually a full attestation and validation held by Dashwatch as to our financials. This included tracing from our open-book accounts a random sample of 25 invoices through to payments (bank statements/trezor). We had set up a single masternode for less than 25 days, in 2017, while ramping the project up, and was always public knowledge - soon as we were online with the team in less than a month, it was liquidated to provide capital for the project as per the plan.

For a project like ours, we do not publish down-to-the-individual details for these costs, but a full in-person, open-book validation by Dashwatch was asked for last month, and we arranged for this to be done. This included answering multiple questions from the community that were gathered over a period of several weeks. The validation Dashwatch implemented was to the level that no other project or proposal has ever done, and took us 2 full days of in-person, 5 hours of video recording and analysis and composition by Dashwatch over a full week following that.

Note: Dashwatch had access to every single invoice and payment on our books in order for them to ask questions, trace and validate as they saw fit. They also saw details of our financial scratch sheets, which are not public, and which relate to our complex liquidation schedule. The liquidation summary has also been validated and was published with our financials.

The network has supported us to get this far, and we have been publishing financials for months that indicate what we would be needed for launch. We are here now, on-time, on-schedule, with a project done more transparently and validated to a further extent by Dashwatch than any other so far.

The next phase is to do what has been planned since the inception of the project, and that is to launch Kuvacash in Zimbabwe. I hope with this in mind you will choose to support the launch.

Thanks,
Drako
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-1 point,2 months ago
Hi reasonably,

One more thing to note - nobody actually owns equity in Kuvacash. The structure of the Kuvacash organisation is such that the ownership is in trust. We have a VCO (Vote Controlled Offering) allocation of Utility Notes for masternodes that voted in our original proposal. You can register for these here, if you voted YES, NO or ABSTAIN. You will need to be able to sign with your masternode collateral address to eventually receive Notes.

https://vco.kuvacash.com/register

Utility Notes are discussed in depth in our earlier proposals, let me know if you need further details. The summary is that they are an ERC-20 token that Kuva will use as business collateral across the business.

We hold regular (bi-monthly) live Q&A sessions for the network with the entire executive team - we will invite others from the team as we move towards launch. We are still in the process of finding an ops director, but they will certainly be involved in the live updates. Also, as you mention, we are also producing a full video demo of our software, screen-capped next week and also demonstrating the business model for launch.

Thanks,
Drako
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3 points,2 months ago
Sorry guys this is just way to expensive. If it was 1/10th perhaps I would vote yes to this. Not sustainable and we get way more bang for the buck in other places. You are on your own from my perspective and it is in your best interesst to launch this product in any case without additional funding from the dash network. I think you have to look elsewhere for funding. Furthermore the demos shown has not been very frequent, and I lack transparency for the development and also who are involved in the product. It is simply too little insight for my liking. There should furthermore be a list of all the expenses and salaries, not just bulletpoints like this. In fact the dashnetwork should own the entire kuvacash app and company for the amount of money it has put into this project. I want to know what the salaries has been for each person involved since the start. It is not very fair from a business deal perspective at all. The number of onboarding for trial is to few, it needs to be more agressive, and as stated budget is way to high.
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2 points,2 months ago
Ok I can see you have the salary breakdown there. Travel and expenses 21000 ? do you hire your own jet plane or something?
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2 points,2 months ago
And how many people are involved, previously I heard a number of 30, where are they stationed in the world? Can we get some confirmation that their salary is not out of the normal. In fact I would also like to see some invoices proof of past expenses/salaries. And what is with the legal fee? I thought you already had your approval/license to run your business??
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1 point,2 months ago
Hi Reasonably,

Answering your thread all in one go. Because Kuvacash is a strategic initiative that is developing not just software, but business structures (in multiple jurisdictions), partnerships, legal and regulatory in multiple countries - there is a fair bit of travel involved.

There are 30 people involved, correct. Actually more than that, including contractors and ad-hoc service providers/expert consultants. All people are being paid market rate (expert consultants) or under market rate (executive). I’m happy for Dashwatch to attest to this, along with all the other validation and attestations they have given us.

There is no way to do this at 1/10th the cost. As it stands, we ran an accelerated schedule, and with very efficient use of funds. At 1/10th the cost, we’d not even have a license let alone software.

We are at the eve of actually launching now, having delivered what we said we would, on-schedule. It is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for Dash to realise its key use case as digital cash, and in an economy that needs it. I hope you will reconsider in light of this.

Thanks,
Drako
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5 points,2 months ago
"The pilot phases will expand from 10-25 users in the Pre-pilot through to 250+ users in the Phase 2 Pilot.."

Given 250 users this is 1600$/user!

Why is there still so much software development needed when the system is claimed to be ready?

Targeting to ramp up to 250+ users in 3 month seems really slow, especially compared to the operational costs! What prevents you from targeting 10x or 100x more? Either raise the targets or lower the costs!

What will be the running costs be after the pilot? What is the long-term funding (1y, 5y) model?
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0 points,2 months ago
Hi Greensheep,

I’m going to copy an answer already given below for why it is best-practice to launch with a pilot, and to moderate user numbers until operations are ready.

I have (check my LinkedIn) launched these kinds of services before - you do not simply go 0-20k users in three months, operationalising at the beginning requires very careful work with the first people using your service stack, to the point of concierge, moving on to a slightly larger group via MGM or outreach, getting to the point where there is insight enough to know how to scale and what will be required with regards to resources. Software changes and adjustments are performed throughout, and usually on a very intensive schedule because if successful in any way, there is usually a high load on your developers as well.

Once we have the insight, and at this stage we do anticipate it to be positive, we would be in a state of readiness to scale to the next user tranche of 500+ users.

Insight includes data to ascertain our projected margins, what parts of the proposition are/are not working (where to focus our attention) and other information that is just not possible to get until we are ‘in the wild’.

At that point, we’d KNOW that this would be a success and will need further funds from the network to get it to a few ‘000 people. We could then be confidently funded for the next tranche, which would be our growth and further outreach.

To explicitly answer your questions re 1-5 year long-term funding; unless we are successful with the pilot, there would be no purpose to DAO continuing funding. The insight we will get will allow us to give a meaningful answer - we have projected margin calculations but for a greenfields project like this, we need to get to pilot first before we can rely on those.
Lowering costs is like lighting a barbecue without enough tinder.

Note that once we start, if successful we can’t just ‘pause’ with customers - in fact we can’t actually pause now, we are commited as per would be expected of our published schedules. And when Kuva is successfully driving real adoption, and I don’t mean a few hundred merchants, I expect MNO’s would vote to support us getting as much penetration into the market as fast as possible.

Thanks,
Drako
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3 points,2 months ago
That does not answer his question, his question is why does it cost $1600 dollar per pre-pilot user ? where is the money going ?
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-1 point,2 months ago
Hi A_node_to_a_master,

It’s going toward operationalising the pre-pilot and pilot. The development teams need to run over this period, as do exec management, operations staff...

Not sure what your question is precisely..but you don’t account for a pilot on a per-user basis, as it’s not an acquisition cost.

Thanks,
Drako
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5 points,2 months ago
So if I understand it correctly, you're unable to scale down even do you have only 25 user to deal with.
Maybe I am missing something here but it sounds like at this scale the cost are quit high, I would like to know how much more the cost will cost at a larger scale ?

Question1:
Are you able to provide an chart of organisation structure ? Which also includes which country they work from

Question 2:
How much do these people actually care about Dash ? Seeing each and everyone wants to be paid in full as it seems.
At any-rate to me this is doesn't sound like a start-up company with passion to its cause. ( I am saying this because most start-ups are willing to accept a smaller income now, for a the future of the company.
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5 points,2 months ago
i really do not understand where his is going !
what is the total number in funding so far ? 1 Mill ?
now this , what is coming next ?
tbh this is totally not sustainable , is dash supposed to pay for x month onwards ? and then ? another x Dash amount for PR and whatnot ?
i have not seen anything or heard anything from ZIM direct about this , remember this is supposed to be a Seed Funding , not a yearly / monthly payroll for whatever might come next !
(check alt36, they put 50% $ themself in + scored outside funding on top - that is sustainable ! + personal $ involvement keep things “real and on the ground” (money falling from the sky does not)
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-1 point,2 months ago
Hi Tungfa,

This is the part where we launch, and I am aware you are not a supporter of the project, nor have you been from the very beginning. I have approached you personally about this, and on the points where you do not make sense, but unfortunately you are not willing to engage.

We are a key strategic initiative for Dash, and have delivered on-time and with full transparency to get to where we are now - ready to launch in Zimbabwe.

If you’re suggesting that the DAO should not fund any other strategic initiatives other than Core, from which you receive your own payroll, especially ones that HAVE been delivering on-schedule and have been clear on their aims, then that is your opinon, and certainly is not fact, nor is it what Core believes to be the case, with whom not only are we in close communication, but have explicitly supported our project (for example, our MoneyConf debut which was directly supported by Core).

Anyway, thanks for posting. Myself and the entire team, should we get the chance, will prove you wrong yet again, as we have previously.

Thanks,
Drako
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3 points,2 months ago
Me and Tungfa see numbers of users per country. Zimbabwe has none (or close to none). We have invested more in Zimbabwe than Venezuela, yet in Venezuela, we see an amazing amount of usage and great results. Tungfa raises a valid point, each time we fund more money here we are offered more promises that Zimbabwe will turn out to be a mecca for Crypto but it's not reflected it what we are seeing. While I know you guys have actually done quite a lot of work, and I believe you want what is best for Dash, work means nothing without results. And after a year and a half, putting more money to legally do things in a country where bribery is rampant just seems like the wrong approach. I much rather like the more grassroots approaches that occur in places like Ghanna and Nigeria (where we see a lot of usage).

I really do like your project, and I think you took the only possible approach possible, to help the most people possible in Zimbabwe, so I'm not downvoting it, I just think that compared with other projects this month that have delivered 1000s of users already for a fraction of the price there is an obvious route to take for funding.
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1 point,2 months ago
Hi Quantumexplorer,

We have been working for 9 months to deliver everything we need to get to this point. I believe that you are however making a category error here.

If you, like Tungfa above (who does not actually understand the project at all) are comparing our project with grassroots initiatives - this is like comparing apples and oranges. We are a strategic initiative that has been IN PREPARATION FOR LAUNCH. We do not have our product in the hands of people until launch happens.

To compare us to some ‘adoption’ metric (which, arguably Dash has near-zero adoption at this point, anywhere in the world) while our focus was on completing software, licenses, partnerships and business structure in preparation for launching as a money system, is not correct.

The network has paid us to get to this point. We are on-schedule with all software, partnerships and licenses in place for launch. It would be more than unusual to have the project wound up now, because, as Arthyron and others state below ***this is it*** ie the moment of truth. Once we launch, and have had time to get through the pilot stage, criticisms like this might indeed be valid - at this stage, however, they are meaningless.

Efforts in Ghana and Nigeria have NOT delivered mass adoption, and grassroots will not deliver this by itself. Tungfa himself, since he has never supported the project, stated that traffic in Africa (and the usage expected) had not been delivered despite the efforts made there and DAO funds spent by others.

We recognise this, and that is precisely why we have taken a totally different approach to gain adoption. It has grassroots elements, but is a highly leveraged initiative. We are not doing pizza and biscuits meetings, or organising ‘education’ or giveaways. We have a focussed plan which is being implemented flawlessly, as can be seen from the numerous reports from ourselves and Dashwatch.

If this project is wound up, there is no other way of telling if it would work or not - unless another elite group works for a year to implement what we have done, and progresses to launch - this is highly unlikely to happen, and in any case may be too late to take advantage of the opportunities we are accessing in Zimbabwe following the deposition of Mugabe and the democratic installation of a new government.

We have an opportunity to make history. To pull the plug on the eve of the curtain going up on work that the DAO has paid for over the last 9 months would be naive to say the least.

I hope with this in mind, you and other MNO’s will continue to support our project, actually seeing it through to launch.

Thanks,
Drako
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-2 points,2 months ago
Update with regards to cooperation between proposal owners for this funding cycle.

We have ongoing conversations where other proposal owners were involved, including DACH, and where all were to lower their asks for this month. We are working with Core and others to see how we can continue to see Kuva through to launch (and see important proposals that cannot be paused funded).

Unfortunately although DACH initially indicated that they could lower their ask for the month by scaling activities, they feel confident that they will not need to this month, having collected votes enough to be near or passing the threshold.

We are not pleased at this but of course will continue our cooperative endeavours with other proposal owners such that our work and that of others is not disrupted in this voting cycle.

@Essra, as you are aware Kuva do NOT have accessible fiat remaining to take the risk on for launch, but what is indeed possible is for your team to look at cost reductions this month, which we know is possible. It may be worth sharing specifics with the community, so they can decide for themselves whether there is value in your more ancillary cost-center activities, or whether you should restructure your proposal.

Thanks,
Drako
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6 points,2 months ago
hello drako, after all our conversations it seems that you are still not willing to understand our situation. we already lowered our ask by 30% before submitting our current proposal and we haven't been funded for the last two month. this means that we are completely out of money now. due to the current dash price we will scale down a lot of our projects (pr is on hold, book is on hold, conferences are on hold, travelling is on hold, ambassadors are on hold) and focus on the things that matter most (business development, integrations, b2b roadshow).

you can find our current number in our public accounting in our proposal or on our website. additionally simon will show you our numbers right soon.

discrediting our proposal is not a proper way to prepare a possible future alliance.

all the best,
essra
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-6 points,2 months ago
Hi Essra,

Nobody is discrediting your proposal. You are aware that your response is not in line with what you have told us on our calls.

You mentioned that you would be able to restructure your activities and lower costs, and now you say that you cannot - which we know is untrue. The reason we understand that it is possible, is precisely because your public accounting is visible and we were able to have a sensible conversation about this.

Your transparency and willingness to come to the table was important, and you have decided another route that does not entail cooperation with the group, it's as simple as that.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
6 points,2 months ago
Dear Drako (aka lemonysnicket, aka Max Yoga, aka kuvateam, aka ...),

Essra is responsible for marketing, education and partnerships in our team. This is why he´s not aware of our exact budget and calculations all the time. He agreed to talks about a potential “budget alliance”, but he definitely did not assure you a granted scale down from our side. As we are acting like a Sub-DAO and therefore we always need to find consensus about decisions like this, he wouldn´t even be allowed to decide that alone.

Here are the numbers essra announced:

leftover from June: 30,171.68 €
- expenses in July: 66,955.40 €
= leftover from July: - 36,783.72 €

planned expenses for August: 48,629.01 € (already scaled down from 103,387.07 €)
+ liabilities from July: 36,783.72
= current liabilities (Jul + Aug): 85,412.73 €

our current proposal ask: 408 DASH
x current Dash price: 144.58 €
= potential funding in September: 58,988.64 € (if Dash price stays at the current level)

potential funding in September: 58,988.64 €
+ donations received in August: 12,662.69 €
= potential available budget for September: 71,651.33 €

potential available budget for September: 71,651.33 €
- current liabilities (Jul + Aug): 85,412.73 €
= leftover in the beginning of September: -13,761. 40€

potential funding in October: 58,988.64 € (if Dash price stays at current level)
- remaining liabilities of September: 13,761. 40€
- planned expenses for October: 48,629.01 € (scaled down as mentioned above)
= leftover in the beginning of October: -3,401.77

All numbers except for the scaled down expenses are available in our public budget accounting. Essra already supported the Dash Embassy D-A-CH UG with 30k from his private pocket at the beginning of the year. We will definitely not be able to go on if we don´t receive a funding for the next 2 months, if the Dash price stays at current level.

We hope you see that there is no room for us to scale down any further.

These talks are over and we will not answer further requests from your side.

#itWASapleasure
simontheravager
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
Sorry, but this might have to be pushed back a month due budget constraints.
Reply
-2 points,2 months ago
Hi Acedian,

Please read below; it’s not that simple or possible (my *important* post and Arthyrons *This is it* post)

Let me know if you have any other questions though.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
I understand, but due to the size of this proposal, we will have to not pay for many other projects or drop a core proposal.

You are doing the right thing speaking with Core. I hope a solution can be found as I really do want to see your project succeed.
Reply
8 points,2 months ago
People keep on saying this is for the Launch. But it doesn't seem to be.

"The funding will cover Kuva’s launch – Phase 1 Pre-Pilot and Phase 2 Pilot activities in Harare, Zimbabwe."
"The pilot phases will expand from 10-25 users in the Pre-pilot through to 250+ users in the Phase 2 Pilot."

So is this the launch of your operations? Or for a pilot that can handle about 250-300 people?

For me a launch should be able to handle at least 10-20k users and expect that many.
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
To my knowledge, it's for the Pilot Launch, which will entail a smaller number of users, but will necessitate all of the infrastructure, facilities, extra employees, etc. In other words, it will be enough to definitively say whether or not KuvaCash warrants further funding or not. That's at least how I've interpreted it after reviewing all of their materials.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
Hi Arthyron, Quantum,

This is correct -
It is important to note that we are staging this as is best practice for a service like ours.

I have (check my LinkedIn) launched these kinds of services before - you do not simply go 0-20k users in three months, operationalising at the beginning requires very careful work with the first people using your service stack, to the point of concierge, moving on to a slightly larger group via MGM or outreach, getting to the point where there is insight enough to know how to scale and what will be required with regards to resources. Software changes and adjustments are performed throughout - if successful in any way, there is usually a high load on your developers as well.

Once we have the insight, and let’s say it is positive, we would be in a state of readiness to scale to the next user tranche.

Insight includes data to ascertain our projected margins, what parts of the proposition are/are not working (where to focus our attention) and other information that is just not possible to get until we are ‘in the wild’.

At that point, we’d KNOW that this would be a success and will need further funds from the network to get it to a few ‘000 people. We could then be confidently funded for the next tranche, which would be our growth and further outreach.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
4 points,2 months ago
Are you in the position to give us a ballpark estimate as to the cost of the full launch/growth tranche please? Will it be similar in size, scope and cost to this pilot launch proposal?

Walter
Reply
0 points,2 months ago
Hi Walters,

Ballpark for now is that it should be similar to what we are asking here, at least we are aware of the problems in the DAO regarding limited funds, and will plan accordingly.

We will only ask to continue if, through the pilot, it is apparent that Kuvacash will be successful. If that is the case, I imagine that the network will be very happy to fund.

We will share data from the pilot in enough detail for MNO’s to make an informed decision.

If the uptake and data shows that we got it right, we’re making history and we would need to grow as quickly as we can.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
Great, thanks for the clarification. I'm sure the MNOs will have no problem with followup funding if the pilot launch is a success.

Thanks

Walter
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
Well that assuming we can actually view the pilot and pilot users.
Reply
5 points,2 months ago
There is now lots of data available to verify and evaluate the progress and milestones of KuvaCash. Further questions to the tune of, "But what have they done for Dash????" will not further the discussion. Compare the risk versus reward profile for our two possible actions.

1. Put no further money into KuvaCash. Risk: We totally kill a project that serious examination suggests are about to have their big launch. We 100% kill the chance to find out if we are going to make a meaningful difference in Zimbabwe. We 100% kill the very positive Public Relations and Marketing that we have gained from this effort. We put a significant chilling effect on future complex projects that may take long term effort.

Reward? Better chance of getting the funds to Core so they operate without any impediment. We limit how much Dash we lose if KuvaCash would ultimately not succeed.

2. Approve the proposal. Risk? Core may have to shuffle things around for a month to meet obligations. KuvaCash may take this additional money, and somehow still not launch.

Reward? KuvaCash does in fact launch. The big push is done and expenses may go down substantially as they enter into maintenance/upgrades. PR/marketing goes ballistic. This pilot project illustrates the pros and cons of going the full above-board, full compliance method of re-making currencies and economies in Africa. The launch and the 90 days after the launch gives us real data on if we want to pursue this method. Core successfully shuffles things around and figures out creative ways to get the job done without eating up more than 70% of the budget.

I personally am voting yes because the potential reward is so high. And of course, I would like to be vindicated when the launch really does go forward and KuvaCash proves they aren't just a very sophisticated long con as some have alleged.

solarguy
Reply
-2 points,2 months ago
Hi Solarguy,

Thank you once again for your support, and for the explanation above - much appreciated.

A compact video is coming in a week that will show our software and a summary of our business model for launch.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
I'm sorry, but with the currently limited available budget funding this month and next month due to DashCore Group budget proposals (which were announced some time ago and should be public knowledge by now), i find the timing of this budget proposal very very unlucky.

Why did you not postpone your public launch of Kuvacash 1 or 2 months so your budget proposal would not clash with Dash Core Group budget proposals ? Or even consulted the Dash community about this upcoming public launch through a pre-proposal discussion ?
(the stretched budget funding this month would most certainly have been mentioned and you could have adjusted the date of your public launch)

Anyways, its too late to change anything at this point and i'm forced to vote no on your budget proposal.
Reply
-1 point,2 months ago
Hi Quizzie,

Our projections, which we were forced to downsize for the reasons of price decline and Core’s ask, have been around for months.

We can’t pause a project like this without damage, for reasons I have posted below by myself and others - in particular read Arthyrons *this is it* post.

We’re currently working with Core to see if we can find a way of alleviating things, but we’re in a situation where if this is not funded, then the project will be wound up. Consider that this has been the efforts of over 30 people, working for 9 months (myself and James having been preparing since last April, the rest of the team since Nov ramp).

Please give due consideration in terms of this - we are not a cost-center business like many other proposals, we’re a strategic initiative to land a self-sufficient service in Africa starting in Zimbabwe which fulfils the Dash vision - to become mainstream digital cash. We are at the eve of our launch, and the network has paid us to get to the point that we’re ready for it, and we are on-schedule.

If we do not get funded, it is over, simple as that. I hope you reconsider in light of this.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
There is another solution : have this budget proposal downvoted and create a new budget proposal with a six months duration (380 Dash per month). It will not compete against any DashCoreGroup proposal and maybe give you enough startup funds to help you survive your project.
Reply
-1 point,2 months ago
Hi Quizzie,

Thanks for the suggestion, we are actually moving forward with a restructured proposal now - will be posted by EOP Monday.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
8 points,2 months ago
So which core funding should we reject? Because there are only 548 coins available after funding them.
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1 point,2 months ago
Say hello to strategic voting... sighh
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3 points,2 months ago
Perhaps I am missing something here. I have seen on reddit that should Dash Core proposals pass, which they probably will, that there are only 548 dash available for other projects.(https://www.reddit.com/r/dashpay/comments/9464tz/there_will_only_be_548_for_funding_proposals_this/)

If this is true then Kuvacash will not be funded even if it passes........... Am I right?
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
Core has three proposals up this month. The super tight budget means that the Masternode community will be forced to make extremely difficult decisions. In my estimation, we could delay Core's request for the legal defense fund for a month without sinking the Dash Core Team ship.

solarguy
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
Dash Core Group budget proposals were communicated well in advance, i'm not willing to sacrifice one of the Core budget proposals over this one.

This is really bad timing to do a public launch for Kuvacash in a time of such a stretched budget funding cycle.
Reply
-3 points,2 months ago
Hi Quizzie,

As I replied above, we have been communicating our intention and financials for months. We have also adjusted our ask in light of the budget pressure from Core.

We are on-time and on-schedule for launch, as would be expected from the network. We are not able to delay, and if we did have issues that delayed launch we’d have justifiable criticism from the network.

As it stands, we communicated our financials, as did Core, from April 2018, which is about as far back we could go without volatility of Dash making our projections meaningless.

We are in a competitive cycle. Dash Core Group does not want to take the risk of moving or adjusting their proposals because if the price dropped further, they are risking not meeting their liabilities and triggering a disorderly restructure (they cannot take more than 100% of the budget - because that is all there is).

We’re pushed into the thankless position of having to be in the ring on a very competitive month. Nobody is happy about that, and I am speaking with other proposal owners to see what can be done.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
Hi KiwiCodger,

It will need to have more votes than currently funded non-Core proposals.

We are in talks with other proposal owners, in particular with D-A-CH to form a partnership that should allow us to put our best foot forward for funding.

If we are not funded this month, Kuva can’t go forward for launch which effectively will end the project, so we are all doing what we can to ensure that this doesn’t happen, while minimising disruption to other essential proposals.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
13 points,2 months ago
Kuva team -
I've heard the same recurring conversation over the last several months.
"What has Kuva accomplished?"
"You obviously haven't reviewed the update videos."
"Show me something tangible!"
"Kuva has delivered everything on schedule and is still on track"...

What we have here is a failure to communicate. Maybe the video format isn't very effective. Make bullet points with reference links to back things up where appropriate.
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
Hi TroyDASH,

We have actually both - written reports (which were worked on by Dashwatch from information provided by us) and live video and Q&A, which was followed up by further DashWatch reports. These are socialised extensively on DN and on DC proposal pages.

For the point-by-point full validation report by Dashwatch, covering up to July 2018, you can go to their latest written report here:

https://dashwatch.org/files/1532801904838.pdf

The video report, which has been indexed (see DF comments in the video) is referenced in that document.

We are also producing a full demo of the software this coming week, with screen-share software and it will be out well in time before voting closes.

And as always I’m more than happy to discuss in person - just PM me on DN. (Max Yoga)

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
There is no need to discuss anything, we just want a short video of you showing the ins and outs of the software.
Show the business model in more detail, and explain why it will work.
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
Hi A_node_to_a_master,

We’re preparing this exact video this coming week. Will include screen-cap of our software in action, and end-to-end explanation of the services we are launching for the pilot, demonstrated with the software itself.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
Yo! DashRiprock! The above is what reasonable, constructive criticism looks like. Your repetitive, disrespectful, bullying, carrying-on is petty and far beneath the standards of decency the Dash community should expect of itself. Although it *is* quite in keeping with the standards of the Monero community - perhaps that's where you belong.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
Guys, as per usual, if you’ve voted yes, be sure to upvote the Kuvacash proposal in the main list of budget proposals to increase its visibility, as some people are still abusing the spam controls to downvote Kuvacash in the list of proposals.
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
Hi,

after reading the discussion here and having followed the activities of Kuva since the first Proposal, I voted Yes.
But I suggest that Kuva offers a certain amount of equity to Dash Venture.

Regardfully

PS:
I am very close to D-A-CH and, dear fellow Masternoder, we must prevent those two entities from going under. Kuva is too big, they need the Blockrewards, but please also consider donating to the D-A-CH Embassy, in case they don't get any funding for the third month in row.
All for the DAO and the DAO for all.
Reply
0 points,2 months ago
Hi Macno,
Thanks for the comment and vote - note that there is no equity held by anyone (other than temporarily in trust) for Kuvacash - we are a new kind of digital business and are establishing in quite a different way. The incentives are all Utility Notes - for which the structure is being settled/developed from a legal standpoint.

We have reserved UN’s for MNO’s who voted in our first proposal (YES, NO or ABSTAIN are all eligible to receive notes). Myself and James are incentivised with the exact same notes. To register for the distribution, please go to:

Https://vco.kuvacash.com

For now you will just need your email.

Thanks for your note also re DACH, I am speaking with Essra shortly.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
Hi Drako,

sorry, yes, I forgot the UN thingy, maybe because I forgot to vote back then :)

Cheerio

Macno
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
It is my opinion that the Kuvacash team has successfully constructed a never-ending need for funds to achieve goals that seem to be eternally just out of reach. So many of the objectives of this project seem to me to be esoteric, such as "Laying the groundwork". If that wasn't enough reason to vote no, here are some more:
1) This project is so lofty it cannot be easily explained. The interview video from DashWatch is nearly 2 hours long. Watch it and ask yourself if it provides any concrete information about what has been accomplished.
2) As Kuvacash will supposedly create a software service that will allow users to convert Dash to other currencies, it is an exchange business and should be self-funded. If that is NOT what it is, then why not just use one of the many free wallets that are already available and skip the testing?
3) The Branding "Kuvacash" does not include the name "Dash" anywhere, but we have paid for everything they have done thus far.
4) The DashWatch report states "The proposal team has indicated that the next step will be performing a pre-pilot with a small group of known individuals..." Why not skip the lengthy descriptions and just test the thing? Or you could be more absurd and do a pre-pre-pre-pilot and drag out the process a few more months.
5) For an MNO to do a proper analysis of this project, it seems necessary to watch hours of video and read through many pages of text just to figure out if anything worthy has been accomplished.
6) The Frame 48 project, associated with Kuvacash, was to deliver a "series" of videos that on the description of the first proposal states: "to look at what adoption of cryptocurrency (specifically Dash) looks like around the world." Where is this "series" of videos and tell me please where it is "specifically Dash"? What are the view-counts on these videos?

Kuvacash costs thus far: Sep '17: (565*3) + Apr '18: (622*4) = 9268 Dash spent!
Frame 48 costs thus far: Jan '18: (45*1) + Feb '18 (187*1) + May '18: (147*1) = 379 Dash for one video with fewer than 3000 views on YouTube. Are we crazy?

My opinions: This project will never end its monthly needs from our treasury. Our money is better spent on projects with more concrete goals and timely proof of delivery.
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
Hi ec1war1,

Thanks for taking the time to make your comments.

Let me try to address your points one-by-one.

1. The project is simple - we aim to launch Dash as a money system in Africa, starting with Zimbabwe. For this to happen, we need to provide a number of services to users - so we produced a wallet to allow users simple way to receive and pay Dash, and also to get USD cash through an agent network. This is a summary of what we have discussed and published multiple times, and is also in the proposal text above under ‘Background’. I will leave you to read more but let me know if you need specifics. Note that we are producing an and-to-end demo for our pilot launch over this coming week, and will share this with the community.

2. Kuvacash is not an exchange - in fact we would use the services of exchanges including Golix and Uphold to exchange Dash for USD - raw Dash wallets just don’t work for users in Zimbabwe, this is the case especially for merchants who do not want to be exposed to crypto risk. We are streamlining the remittance process as well so people can get access to Dash and feed our ecosystem, which is not trivial. In addition to this, we are developing partnerships to bring Dash to people through services they use every day. I hope that clarifies things a bit more.

3. Our branding and approach is in line with and agreed by Dash Core (which was explicitly signed off by Fernando when we co-exhibited at MoneyConf in Dublin). We are not Dash, we are Kuvacash, ‘Powered by Dash’ as per how we position ourselves everywhere. Think of our relationship to Dash as similar to ‘Intel Inside’ - that way we can position and brand appropriately for the market, and people are aware they use Dash within our wallet.

4. I have personally launched money services internationally - you may check my LinkedIn for yourself to verify. It is extremely important that a money service like this is launched carefully, with full concierge for the initial pilot group, any issues resolved, moving onto a larger pilot before invite-only MGM launch. This is how every other contemporary money service, from Revolut through to Uphold has launched. We are taking a best-practice approach, as would be expected of us.

5. This is not a simple project. There are at this point over 30 people involved in Kuvacash across multiple dimensions of the business, not counting our external partners. Reporting on this is complex, and we have erred on making a comprehensive effort of this rather than producing overly simplified summaries for the network. Dashwatch has written up the highlights in all their reports, we have kept the network abreast of our developments in detail as well with our video and live Q&A. I would expect this of every major proposal on Treasury. You can certainly get an adequate understanding of the entire project by reading our proposal background in this DC submission, and validating it all through reading Dashwatch’s latest in-person validation report.

6. Frame 48 is an independently funded project, but we are using their outputs to build advocacy and support for our project from many people and partners who we are now working with. It covers the reason that we are doing what we set out to do.

On top of this, we are also aiming to become self-sufficient - we are a strategic initiative for Dash to land in Africa and make history. I hope you will consider supporting what we’re doing, given where we have gotten to with the power of Dash and the DAO.

With this funding we launch in Zimbabwe. On-time and on-schedule.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
-2 points,2 months ago
Thank you Drako for replying to my concerns.

"so we produced a wallet to allow users simple way to receive and pay Dash" - To me this is like reinventing the wheel. There are already a half-dozen wallets that could be used, and Evolution is coming, which should make Dash even easier to use out of the box. Why did we fund another wallet?

"and also to get USD cash through an agent network." - paper currency through an app? Why not just use Tether? I don't get it. Is this the golden egg that makes this project so expensive? Paper currency still requires a user to show up somewhere and collect the currency. This is so unclear to me on how it will work or what value it will add.

"We are streamlining the remittance process as well so people can get access to Dash and feed our ecosystem" - What does "streamlining the remittance process" even mean? What does "feed our ecosystem" mean? What could be more streamlined than using Dash as it already is?

The name Kuvacash "is in line with and agreed by Dash Core" - DashCash would have been a better name in my opinion.

"This is not a simple project." - I agree. To me Kuvacash is expensive and esoteric, definitely not simple. I am concerned that its complexity has been used to obfuscate its lack of achievement.

Something should have been achieved for the 4183 Dash investment made by the DAO to date. What? And if the answer to that question is not simple, then I see no reason to continue funding.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
Who cares about your opinion re: the name DashCash? For all you know that could sound meaningless or even obscene in the target market. re: 'What does "streamlining the remittance process" even mean?' Ha! You're not even qualified to have an opinion on this project. Stick to nit-picking the chicken-raffle proposals - that'd be about your limit of comprehension.
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
Hi ec1warc1,

Let me address your comments;

1. Regarding the wallets - although it is called a ‘Wallet’ the Kuva wallet has little in common with a raw crypto wallet. It is a BWS client (like CopPay and also includes functions to send Dash to phone contacts, scan-and-pay a funds request to a contact, book USD cash out via a Dash liquidation, receive a remittance (originating from a bank account payment) and put a remittance into Dash. It also includes a way to get Dash with cash (exchange connectivity). You can think of what you are saying like ‘why do we need Venmo, people already have bank accounts and credit cards! Evolution is another raw wallet - we will likely use it as well as our foundation when it comes out, but it does not provision many of the necessary solutions that people need to actually use the wallet. Hope you can see my point here.

2. Regarding availability of USD cash. In Africa, USD is king - like it or not, they have no idea what Dash is. All a business knows is that it has to pay a supplier in USD. All anyone else knows is that USD is ‘money’. This is our starting point. They have no idea what ‘Tether’ is (not that it solves anything for us or them at all) and so we have to meet peoples’ needs where they are right NOW to build traction. One of these critical needs, is the low availability of USD cash, and by making our solution enable that, we guerilla into the market such that people will enthusiastically use outback product. I have spoken many times on this - please watch the trailer that Frame 48 produced as it is one of the most lucid illustrations of the issue that we are solving for people.

3. This means that we need to enable people with our wallets getting hold of Dash, and making that process as easy as possible for them. So we allow people from other countries to remit funds directly to a Kuva wallet, which can then be stored in Dash. We do all the hard work (connecting to exchanges, taking their payment, settling balances etc) so that it becomes a no-brainer and we get our system full of Dash. It is because we have done our insight and developed around this; if it’s too hard a process people won’t do it. But if it’s easy as pie, solves a problem and saves them money, they will.

4. Thanks for your opinion, but we designed Kuva to suit the market in Zimbabwe and in Africa. It translates in Shona (phonetically) to ‘To Have’ and resonates very well with the market. We are there make sure people are free To Have like all people on this planet should be.

5. We are doing what we set out to do for next to nothing. Compare us with the cost or VC raise of any other similar system (Revolut, Uphold...)and you’ll be questioning how it is that we can manage our costs as we have done. It is also not an esoteric project at all - if you can write extensive questions as you have done, yet through the explanations, summaries and expansions then like most people here, you must be able to understand Kuvacash initiative and project.

As for our achievements - we have achieved all the network has paid us to achieve this far - you can see this from the numerous updates and via Dashwatch’s validation report. We’re producing a video this week to show the software end-to-end for those who are interested.

If despite all this clarity, you still do not understand what we are doing, I am always available to speak with to help you out, just PM me. Max Yoga on DN.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
0 points,2 months ago
Finally, an answer to my questions. Thank you. This is what I was asking for from the very beginning.

1. There is more information in your description in this paragraph than anything I have seen thus far, including the video and the dashwatch report combined. I would like to see this in action. I am sorry there is not a more professional demonstration video available now.

2. I have run a business in a hyper-inflation economy (Argentina 1989) and I understand the base currency is the dollare in such cases. I am still rather unclear how the wallet or other services you intend to offer will convert dollars to Dash or visa versa. I would love to see a demo.

3. This answers my question about "streamlining the remittance process".

4. This tells me why it is called Kuvacash. I doubt many others knew this before.

5. You compare Kuvacash to Revolt and Uphold. Projects like these ususally have investors and they must answer their investor's inquiries. It should be acceptable to do the same here in this forum, without making judgemental remarks about the person who requests more information or shows skepticism.

Thank you for being clear.
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
Hi Ed,

No worries, and I hope you will now support our project. You were not judged, but the note from Arthyron was that many of your questions had been already answered, multiple times. It is fine to ask these questions again, it’s all part of the way things work here.

To your note (2) we are producing a full demo video of the core user paths through the apps this week. This should show you how the conversion is done and what the service looks like between USD and Dash.

See below for note regarding investor alignment with incentices, I used the example of ‘similar’ not ‘exactly the same’ for that reason.

I hope that you will now support our launch, but let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
If your video demonstrates a functioning app I may change my votes.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
Hi DashRiprock,

Thanks, I sincerely appreciate the sentiment.

Demo video will be out in approx 1 week, and will be screen-recorded rather than ‘in-hand’. We will post it up here for everyone when it is complete.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
Hi Ed,

Reposted the response to the investor question here because it seems to be getting buried in the discussion, and I think important to understand::

The summary for the key incentive mismatch (also explained in detail in the Dashwatch validation report interview video) is this; investors primarily expect profit/returns from Kuvacash primarily - and the MNO’s primarily expect sustainable adoption (as that is what would benefit Dash the most).

Not to mention getting profit out of Zimbabwe is difficult, but that’s not our primary aim since we align with the aims of MNO’s and the Dash community.

Thanks,
Drako
Reply
0 points,2 months ago
I am sure that other MNOs would like to see the wallet. Someone messaged me this video clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjVUk66qNXM&feature=youtu.be&t=3m37s
I am glad to see this. This is the best evidence I have seen that something has been created. I would like to see a more clear demonstration and explanation as to why this is a solution that Dash should be funding.
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
Did you bother to access their personal YouTube page where they've been delivering periodic updates since last year? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAqKI-u6xS9Ry2PdqMdIVkQ

It's like you just found out this project existed and haven't bothered to look in to it up until this point. Literally every question you asked has already been answered ad-nauseum in previous updates.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
299 minutes of content spread out over 7 videos! I ask the tough questions, and all you can do is say "You must watch the videos because they already answered your questions." There is space right here to answer my questions. I don't have time to watch 299 minutes of video in order to make a decision on voting on a single, expensive proposal that has delivered few tangible benefits to Dash over a period of 9 months.

The fact of the matter is that I watched the entire DashWatch interview video for two hours. That video sounded to me like a Dash MNO with an unclear business idea that we have funded.

The only reason I can think of to continue funding is not to take a loss on the 4183 Dash we have already spent (over a million USD when valued at an average Dash price since September), which is not a good reason in my opinion.

If anyone else came to us and asked for 1 million USD to develop a wallet, who would vote YES? If they asked for $456,000 USD more just to test and release the wallet, would you vote YES? I doubt that Core Team has invested that much in the Android wallet that I use every day and it already does everything that this proposal is boasting about as accomplishments - which we cannot really see or try out for ourselves, except perhaps for the video that I linked to that is NOT on the Kuvacash channel. The proposal owner hasn't even linked to that video!
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
So Proposal Owners are expected to spoon-feed each and every MNO who doesn't want to take the time to do the job they are paid to do? Kuva has put up proposals for months and been voted to receive funding all these months, and just now you're asking these questions and demonstrating that you haven't been paying attention for the last almost year or so? How is that their fault? This is all your failure to uphold *your* responsibilities as a MNO.

KuvaCash is obviously much more than a wallet, and now I *know* you haven't bothered to avail yourself of all of this information over the last 9 months, derelict in your duties.

Also, a video taken at MoneyConf showing the same information is, in fact posted on their personal YouTube channel, the one they linked to was from a third party.
Reply
0 points,2 months ago
This is the response that I got for asking questions, being skeptical, and considering the cost of this proposal, not only in Dash converted to USD, but also in not being able to fund other proposals in order to fund this one.

Kuvacash is one of the most expensive proposals we have seen to date and could fail to deliver even if we do support it further. There are no guarantees here. But, just pointing that out is enough to garner you a number of personal judgements like this one from Arthyron.
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2 points,2 months ago
Asking questions, being skeptical, or considering the costs of a proposal in themselves and/or in relation to what other proposals will be edged out are perfectly reasonable considerations and approaches to engaging a proposal. Making demands of a proposal owner that have already been fulfilled or asking questions that have already been answered ad-nauseum for months is not a reasonable approach. Being overtly skeptical without cause or justification is not a reasonable justification. Considering the costs of a proposal without actually taking the time to understand a proposal in order to be able to properly evaluate its relationship with costs or importance to the network is not a reasonable approach.

It absolutely could fail to deliver, and so could Core, or any other number of proposals, but if you vote against it just as they are about to launch, it absolutely *will* fail, and the same is not necessarily true of many of the other proposals that are seeking funding this round.

It has nothing to do with personal judgments, and everything to do with your approach and the content and nature and methodology of your assessments. You are not being fair or reasonable in your assessment of this proposal and you have not done your due diligence for which you are being paid to do as a Masternode Owner for the last 9 months in regards to this proposal which has continually been funded up to this point. That's on you. I don't have to know you or know anything about you personally to identify these behaviors.
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3 points,2 months ago
Hi ec1warc1,

We don’t expect anyone to watch the entire series of updates which we posted over almost 9 months. You can get all you need from the latest update video, and from the latest Dashwatch validation report, which takes you to July 2018. There is also an indexed video for questions raised by the community, and which needed to be answered in context.

I now think you have little in the way of business expertise. If nobody funded projects like ours, there would be no Uphold, Revolut etc - all are services and fintech service layers that bring to the consumer an easy and convenient experience that meets their needs. We have produced our entire initiative - not just a wallet, but a wallet, web applications, licenses, business partnerships, marketing program etc for this amount.

We are on the cusp of launch, with everything in place, on-schedule and as tracked by the network. I suggest you rethink your position, and come to the right side of the history we are making here.

Thanks,
Drako
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-1 point,2 months ago
Correction on my math: 4183 Dash spent thus far on Kuvacash.
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11 points,2 months ago
760 in our current situation.. I don´t comment other proposals often, but: WTF?!
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1 point,2 months ago
Hi Essra,

I’m aware this may affect your own proposal, and that this is a thankless month for all proposal owners due to the DCG ask.

Please see below for our important announcement related to this, I have also reached out to you on Dash Nation.

Thanks,
Drako
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5 points,2 months ago
thank you for your reply drako. we won't be able to skip another month as we already skipped two (1 by our own choice, 1 by lack of budget) so if we don't get funded this month we need to shut down the embassy. but this shouldn't be discussed here... I just think that in times like these all proposals need to scale down and watch others.. this is why we lowered our costs by more than 30% and skiped july by our own choice. If there is not enough budget we all need to step back a bit to keep all projects running and don't kill the global outreach of Dash. Of course I wish you all the best and want good projects to happen. I think you should act more responsable for Dash in general and not only for your own project.. but you are not the only one acting like this. no offence, but start thinking globally.
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0 points,2 months ago
Hi Essra,

I realise the issues you are experiencing. We have taken extreme cuts to our budget, this can be attested between our June and July financial projections we have published - it is no easy feat cutting 80k+ out of our operations, but it has to be done. We are at the cusp of launching in Zimbabwe what has been funded by the network, and we cannot put a pause on this - that is not how an operational initiative like Kuvacash works.

I also suggest that this is good time for your own initiative to consider what you can do - it is a very tough month. We don’t want to do budgetary comparisons between projects, but outreach can certainly scale down a lot easier than what we are able to do.

Note also that this pressure you are feeling is mainly due to two things; DCG’s ask which at over 4400 Dash is almost 6x ours, and the decline in the price of Dash. We are feeling this as well.

In any case, I do look forward to speaking with you next week on this if you are available.

Thanks,
Drako
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7 points,2 months ago
update: drako and me had a great call today and we are looking forward for a strategic partnership. we´ll keep you updated.

thank you drako.

#itsapleasure
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2 points,2 months ago
Hi Essra,

Thanks - yes I can confirm that we had an excellent call and are arranging a way forward for both of us.

Thanks Essra and D-A-CH, looking forward to our partnership and we will update the network shortly what that means for both proposals.

Drako
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4 points,2 months ago
I hope my fellow MNOs realize that *THIS IS IT.* This is make-or-break time for KuvaCash, for everyone that has been asking for results and accomplishments, this is it. After all this time and funding, we're choosing to move forward and finally put KuvaCash to the actual test, or to kill it forever.

Make no mistake, that's what this proposal entails.

For those of you making the comparison between KuvaCash and the Venezuelan proposals, I think you're equivocating and I'll explain why. Kuva and VZ--beyond their specific details and idiosyncracies as projects individually or otherwise--represent something very important to Dash on a theoretical level. They represent two different approaches to the problem of achieving the fabled "mass adoption" we've been pursuing since the beginning of this project.

On the one hand, with VZ, we have a lot of small, grassroots movements working together. Mass Adoption has not yet been achieved, even if we're beginning to see the portents of it like in Rodrigo's recent documentary. With lots of people working at the local, regional, and national level, they've been able to achieve a lot of progress on the way to mass adoption, but for now, what we're paying for are stickers in windows and for people to sit in auditoriums. We're still a long ways off from mass adoption in VZ, but we've got a lot of great projects that given time could take off, and a more-or-less workable model for achieving results with grass-roots efforts in nations facing economic uncertainty.

On the other hand, with Kuva, we have a tech-oriented project that is utilizing existing infrastructure, regulation, and new technology to retrofit itself to a nation and market where we don't have much in the way of grassroots traction but is none the less ripe for the picking. This is a massive departure from the grassroots approach utilized in VZ, but it is one that has the *potential* to be just as successful or possibly more. The difference is that it's a more concentrated approach with one very large (potentially, of course) output, whereas VZ is a broad approach with many small outputs.

Obviously with a grassroots approach, you're going to see a much quicker uptake of smaller accomplishments. It's likely that conferences, and meetups and giveaways will be nominally successful, and that's not to discount the people in VZ who are working very hard and doing great things, but you have to take in to account the nature of the work being done. If the end result is achieving mass adoption, we're no where near that even in VZ, even if there are some very concentrated pockets that are well on their way.

A cursory glance at Dash Watch shows that we've probably spent over a million dollars toward the efforts in Venezuela, and it's likely going to take millions of dollars in additional spending to eventually get VZ to the place of mass adoption if we ever get there. All in all, this is pretty similar to the spending on Kuva.

So what this boils down to is which approach or model will ultimately be successful for the price-point? More than the actual proposals and projects themselves, this is the hidden value of these proposals, because they represent two distinct possibilities as prototypes for Dash's movements and expansions in to different markets.

So for the sake of the network--not to mention all the work and resources that has gone in to KuvaCash already--we need to ensure that this proposal passes so we can actually see what it is capable of. If it turns out that it doesn't pan out, then it doesn't pan out and we'll know that it's better to stick to grassroots projects and leave the development to Core. However, if it does work out, it could be the biggest non-Core project in terms of expanding the reach and success of Dash yet.

We ought to see it through at least to the pilot. After that, we will be able to actually determine whether or not it's a project we ought to continue funding.
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3 points,2 months ago
I completely agree. And anybody who says kuvacash is a scam has cleary not been paying attention or read the latets dashwatch report on them.
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1 point,2 months ago
Thanks thesingleton,

We’re on the cusp of launching, on-schedule and having done what we set out to do so far. I hope people will support us to finally get this into Zimbabwe and Africa,

I think there are definitely individuals trying to derail us right at the end...makes little sense.

Thanks,
Drako
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0 points,2 months ago
With the budget as tight as it is today, I think comparing the results of other projects and what they have achieved to what Kuvacash has achieved is perfectly acceptable. If Kuvacash is approved, it will be at the cost of many other proposals that have done a lot more for the ecosystem than Kuvacash, and for a lot less money.
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4 points,2 months ago
Again "done a lot more for the ecosystem" is a dubious metric due to the nature of how these projects operate. Grassroots efforts yield immediate results, but they are comparatively small in scope by their very nature. Projects like this can yield enormous results in one fell swoop. It's the difference between holding a local meetup and onboarding the local coffee shop and integration in to an established payment processor with millions of customers. Those are two very different approaches with very different outcomes.

Kuva's already talked about some of their partnerships which would open up and directly foist Dash in to the hands of thousands of people at once. Furthermore, because of the technology and platform that Kuva has *already developed,* there's no ambiguity or learning curve when it comes to trying to *get* Dash in order to spend it, everything is built in to the platform ready to go.

It's the difference between building an ecosystem piece by piece organically in a market over time vs. airdropping and grafting in a working ecosystem in to an existing market, two completely diffferent things. Both have enormous potential, but the difference is, many of the other projects won't die if they go without funding for a month and render millions of dollars in previous funding in to a loss.

It's absurd to fund this project all the way to its projected release and then refuse to allow it to be released when we knew where it was going, how it was going to get there, and what it was going to take. We've known about this for months. We've chosen to take it this far, and now when we finally have a chance to see what it can do when we fire it up, why would we decide to throw it in the dumpster?
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-1 point,2 months ago
Dash gets its value by removing the bank from the process of payment, so why should Dash or its providers have "partnerships" with "payment processors". This makes no sense to me.

It may be discovered that "payment processors" have no incentive to do the ground work for Dash, and signing such an agreement is just for show or to receive a hidden payment. We may all cheer the partnership, but months later, we may discover that the DAO is left holding an empty bag of promises. You have no way to back up the claim that an agreement with a "payment processor" will in fact "foist Dash into the hands of thousands of people at once".

Grassroots projects having "done a lot more for the ecosystem" is not a dubious metric. One business more accepting Dash is one more advocate for our currency. It represents more real people who will help others to get started with Dash. It leads to more and more members of the Dash Nation. Comparing that to the possibility of a partnership with a big "payment processor", I prefer something tangible and real, albeit small, over something possible but not yet accomplished and completely uncertain. I especially prefer this while our budget is so lean because it costs a lot less and is less risky.

"It is abusrd to ... refuse to allow this project to be released" - actually we have already paid over a million dollars. If that is not enough to see this project to its end, then we have already overpaid, in my opinion.

They should release their wallet now so we can see what we have already paid for. Why not show us the source code for this wallet they have developed? How can we be sure that what we have paid for is not a copy of existing source code with a new look pasted on top? Is it too much to ask for to see why this wallet is so much better than other wallets, so innovative in its concept, that it requires two pilot runs at a cost of $456,00 USD before it can be released?
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1 point,2 months ago
I don't really know how to begin to address the lack of knowledge here about how economies and systems of money work in general let alone in particular regions like Zimbabwe, but suffice it to say, you are not going to onboard an entire nation with grassroots efforts putting stickers in windows overnight.

People are used to using money as a store and method of transacting value. They're used to certain forms, have saved the value they've accrued in those forms, have access to certain forms. Dash represents a new form, a new way of doing so, but in order to use Dash, people have to have a way of converting their old forms to new forms that more or less jive with the extant infrastructure, technology, regulations, and customs in any particular market. More than that, they also have to have a sufficient incentive to disrupt their old, extant patterns and algorithms to try something new. Obviously people in places like Venezuela and Zimbabwe have a great deal more incentive than elsewhere, but the infrastructure still isn't there. Even if you onboard hundreds more merchants, the infrastructure still isn't there. People have to have a way to bridge the gap between these disparate ways of storing and transacting value. That's what KuvaCash does, and what we need everywhere, including Venezuela.

The fact that you dismiss a partnership with a "payment processor" shows you don't understand how any of this works. You can onboard one merchant and that's one place at which people can spend Dash. You can onboard a thousand merchants and that's a thousand places people can spend Dash. If you integrate a large payment processor, that's thousands if not millions of places people can spend Dash. That's the difference here, one small shop at a time vs. thousands. Both have their place, both are important, and true mass adoption will require both, but just having one is not going to do the job unless we want to spend ten times as much trying to win a country over one shop at a time. That's why Dash Core Group has been pursuing these larger integrations and partnerships they have been the last year or two.

Comparing these two approaches is not a dubious metric because grassroots initiatives are bad or ineffective, comparing these two approaches is a dubious metric because they're fundamentally different things, apples and oranges. What you prefer has no bearing on how things actually work. Obviously something actually beneficial is preferable over something that is definitely not beneficial, but we haven't reached a point at which you can reasonably say that KuvaCash is not beneficial. If they're put to the test and their pilot flops, sure, then the difference is clear, but that's not what is happening here.

We have also spent over a million dollars toward the efforts in Venezuela when everything is factored in (advertising, etc). So far it hasn't had much of an effect on the price or use of Dash either. I don't count that against the Venezuelan proposals because I understand that efforts of this magnitude take a lot of time and a lot of money to come to fruition, but your bias toward grassroots efforts is keeping you from fairly evaluating the scope and purpose and potential of these proposals. They're coming from completely different angles toward the same goal.

You've already demonstrated a lack of even a basic understanding of what this project is trying to accomplish by your own admission. Thus, you have no business assessing whether or not its funding has been sufficient for the task unless you're trying to invoke some arbitrary spending limit on what is necessary or prudent for any project at all, which is obviously its own kind of irrationality.

Kuva has already explicitly committed to showcasing their product soon and explicitly stated as such above. Are you just not reading the responses while continually making demands or what?
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1 point,2 months ago
A quote from LorenzoReyC on Discord: "Could you explain the Kuvacash project please? I've checked out their proposal and their videos but still don't understand what they're about, I mean I know they're making a wallet, but the project is much bigger and getting tons of funds and I want to understand it."

Irrational?
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-1 point,2 months ago
LorenzoReyC is new to the ecosystem and is not a native English speaker to my knowledge. You've been here a long time. You've had ample opportunity to follow along with the proposal and updates from the beginning. The latest updates have been to talk about the progress in the enormous task they're undertaking, so they require that previous knowledge because they're geared toward MNOs like us that *should* already be up to speed if we are doing our jobs. I can see how someone new to the ecosystem would have a hard time piecing together something of that scope who hasn't seen the updates or documentary piece from Frame48 or what have you. I can see someone who is not paid to keep up to date not being incentivized to take the time to understand what is going on. LorenzoReyC's circumstances don't absolve you of your responsibilities.
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1 point,2 months ago
You have characterized me as lacking knowledge and being irrational simply because I ask questions that you don't like. It is the project owner's responsibility to present Kuvacash in a way that is clear, tangible, and worthy of continued investment. I think you will find there are many MNOs who who share my skepticism or simply prefer that our limited funds be spent elsewhere.
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-1 point,2 months ago
This assertion is false. I've very comprehensively explained the problems I have with your questions and approach in assessing this proposal. It has nothing to do with a personal preference or aesthetic about your questions and everything to do with the implications of the questions being asked.

The presentation is clear, tangible, and worthy of continued investment and all but the latter attribute (which is more subjective), they're just delivered in such a way that assumes that you've actually been paying attention at all to the last 9 months of funding rounds this project has gone through. You've consistently demonstrated that you have not. This is not the fault or responsibility of KuvaCash. This rests on you and you alone.

If other MNOs share the same perspective, I will offer the same critcisims of their arguments and questions because they too have been derelict in their duties. There are several other MNOs who have offered reasonable, intelligent, knowledgeable criticisms or questions in this very proposal thread, and I have not debated with them because my problem is not with criticisms or questions in themselves but in the disingenuous, irresponsible, and irrational behaviors that sometimes inform them.

If your questions and criticisms demonstrated a full, working knowledge of the proposal, its scope, its budget, its communications to the community and Dash Watch, the market in which it intends to operate, and the other relevant facts about the proposal and minimal bias--as many other commenters in this thread have done--we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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1 point,2 months ago
One other point I'll make is that the technology KuvaCash has developed is technology we *desperately* need to accelerate adoption in other areas of the world. The technology is there, it works, we've seen it operate in videos, and assuming it's not all smoke & mirrors, it could totally crack open our efforts in other places in the world, and if successful, could easily take their technology and transplant and deploy it in other nations much quicker than it would take to build grassroots efforts to mass adoption levels over and over. That's the relative strength of this model. Let's not throw away all of that incredibly useful technology and services.
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2 points,2 months ago
"technology we *desperately* need" - we are paying for technology we won't even own in the end, or will we? We are paying for technology we have not seen yet. How do we know we desperately need it?
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2 points,2 months ago
1. KuvaCash has already expressed willingness to sign exclusivity agreements with the network when such agreements become legally viable (i.e. Dash Ventures, etc). They've also given numerous technical and economic reasons why pivoting to another funding or partnership source makes no sense for them. They were intentionally built from the ground up to work with Dash and only Dash.

2. We have seen the technology. Where have you nay-sayers been all this time? Have you not bothered to watch the videos? The technology exists, it was demoed publicly at MoneyConf in Dublin and previously in various update videos. Members of DCG were there when it was demoed. DashWatch has reviewed the products first hand themselves and confirmed that they're real. Kuva will also be doing a screen-capped demo of their products soon. I'm getting tired of MNOs not doing their job and making arguments from ignorance.

3.How do we know we desperately need it? Because for all the grassroots efforts around the world--like I said in my initial post--all we've really accomplished is the *potential* for increased use. This hasn't actually translated in to substantially increased use. Why is that? It's because we haven't built the entire ecosystem. Onboarding merchants--for example--is an important step, but if no one has Dash to spend at them, if no one knows how to spend Dash at them, no one knows that they can spend Dash at them, and no one has an incentive to spend Dash at them instead of hodling, it won't matter that merchants accept Dash. All those other pieces need to be filled in before a complete ecosystem takes form and begins to live and breathe and grow. Kuva's platform provides the entire infrastructure ready to go in an accessible way that embeds itself in an existing market according to its regulations and customs. It provides all the necessary tools and accessibility to facilitate all these processes that can be duplicated in any region in the world (pending regulatory approval, of course).

If it's successful in Zimbabwe, that platform could easily be adapted and transplanted to other markets. Imagine if Kuva's platform were being developed for Venezuela instead of Zimbabwe. I know that Kuva has not explicitly planned to branch in to LatAm and instead wants to branch in to other African regions, but imagine if that platform was available for use in Venezuela. It would single-handedly solve all those hurdles and obstacles to mass adoption that the current Venezuelan efforts face.

Ultimately, we will need both grassroots and technological efforts in any market to truly reach a state of mass adoption, and every market will likely require millions of dollars of funding to penetrate and get truly established, but the advantage with technological solutions is you don't have to wait for things to spread organically, you don't have to rely on the performance of hundreds of individual actors doing their very specific jobs, you don't have to coordinate dozens of different groups with their own goals and needs and funding requirements.

Kuva's solution has a lot going for it, and Dash would be making a tremendous mistake allowing it to go untested.
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0 points,2 months ago
"it won't matter that merchants accept Dash" - I disagree. It will matter! Merchants who accept Dash are advocates for our currency. They will be talking about Dash with their clients and providers. Those conversations will lead to more people who will take the steps to get involved in Dash, including buying it, spending it, and accepting it as payment themselves.

If the Kuvacash wallet is such an amazing solution to the problem of adoption, let us see the wallet up close, all of its features! What features are so special with this wallet that adoption of Dash is practically ensured by its release? What features are so unique that two test runs will cost $456,000 USD now and almost certainly even more three months from now?
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0 points,2 months ago
You disagree, but then where are your metrics to substantiate your claims? If putting stickers in windows is all it takes, where are the transactions on the network? Surely onboarding a few hundred merchants would have a significant impact if that was alone sufficient for the task, right?

You're speaking from a place of idealism with no basis in reality or data. We aren't yet seeing what you describe born out in actuality. I believe we will long-term as well, but not without these other key pieces of infrastructure, which is exactly what Kuva is providing. I already addressed the issue of their product above several times, and Kuva's team has too. Read.
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0 points,2 months ago
Putting stickers in windows and training business owners is how payment processors do it! Why wait for them? It is being done in Latin America today without their help. No "idealism" here. Just hard work and real results that have been proven by video.

If you want transactions on the network to prove it, let me state two things: 1) it has been proven from different Latin America projects that transactions have increased from certain countries here. Downloads of the Android wallet have increased significantly across Latin America. Can the same be said for Zimbabwe? 2) my own project provided 3,000 transactions per day to people around the world, but mostly in Venezuela. Funding dried up due to us spending our treasury on vastly more expensive projects. Yesterday, the entire network of Dash only did a paultry 5635 transactions. (source https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/dash-transactions.html#3m)
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1 point,2 months ago
Payment processors are huge organizations that fund their own efforts and onboard hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. It's a question of scope. If you think a thousand merchants is the same thing as millions of merchants and that the former somehow constitutes mass adoption, I don't know what to tell you other than you might want to refresh your basic math skills. Again, I don't discount the grassroots approach, but it is not sufficient by itself to achieve what Dash is hoping to achieve, and certainly not without years more activity and millions more in funding. The grassroots situation has time, and it can survive a month or two without funding here or there. This project can't. Apples and Oranges.

Transactions have increased and wallet downloads have increased across Latin America. Great, by how much, and what actual impact has this had on network usage? To what meaningful effect? Of course the same cannot be said for Zimbabwe because the project has not yet launched and you're baselessly arguing that it never should, thereby begging the question.

Funding didn't dry up because we spent it on expensive projects. It dried up because the market is down.

Yes, your project was a great project as a smart faucet, but smart faucets and a few merchants are not *all* we need for where Dash is going. KuvaCash represents another approach that can fill in the gaps left by grassroots efforts and it needs to have its day in court so that the network can determine whether that approach to expansion in to new markets and territories is a worthwhile one. The difference is it requires most of its funding up front before it launches and then viably plans to be self-sufficient after that point if the project is successful. Grassroots efforts can be funded as they go, but they will always need more and more funding, which coincidentally your initial accusation against KuvaCash.
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0 points,2 months ago
At the current rate expect to see over 10,000 merchants accepting Dash payments in South America within the coming months. If we were smart and aimed our Treasury into South America we would see 100,000+ merchants accepting Dash within a year. You wouldn't be able to walk down a street without seeing 'Dash Accepted Here' signs.

We have found a foothold already. Cut our losses and aim our power where it is working.

Africa isn't going anywhere and we are currently stretched too thin.

Voting no.
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3 points,2 months ago
Onboarding merchants in itself is pointless if no one has Dash to spend at them, no one has an incentive to learn how to obtain and spend Dash at them, and no one has an incentive to spend rather than hodl. Onboarding merchants is just a piece of mass adoption and doesn't constitute mass adoption in itself. All these other pieces will need to fall in to place before even a single merchant accepting Dash means anything. Kuva provides all those other pieces at once. Once you have a working system and infrastructure, it's much easier to gain traction in any market, and Kuva has specifically chosen Zimbabwe because it's especially appropriate for this use case. Stop reducing diverse, complicated, nuanced markets to continents, it's not that simple.
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7 points,2 months ago
"The Kuvacash Wallet – a BIP32/39/44 secure wallet for storing cryptocurrency", how many man-weeks has gone into this? Is the code open source?
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1 point,2 months ago
Hi quantumexplorer,

We have an open-source program we are launching under openkuva shortly. We had to build a native wallet and BWS client since following the exit from the Dash CoPay build, most of what was out there was not suitable for us. This was done over the last 2 months, at accelerated schedule.

We’re past feature-parity with the old CoPay build now, will Ben producing a demo video next week for the network of our software.

Let me know if you have any other questions

Thanks,
Drako
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4 points,2 months ago
Speculation as fact is not allow... oh, wait a minute, this isn’t Discord, the forum or Reddit! :p

Can we debate the facts please, not speculate about scams and people’s motives? That would be great, thanks.
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2 points,2 months ago
voted yes, but we better start seeing some adoption results aside from sw development, time for the rubber to meet the road and actually see some transactions taking place
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0 points,2 months ago
Hi Unchained,

Thanks for your support, it is very much appreciated and this is what we are at the point of now. We’ll not disappoint.

Thanks,
Drako
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4 points,2 months ago
I think Kuvacash may have to put their plans on hold until Dash rockets up in value. At present there are other projects more worthy.
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1 point,2 months ago
Hi KiwiCodger,

It’s not possible for us to just ‘pause’ Kuvacash. It would be the same question to ask Core or any other org that is running. We have ongoing commitments which means we can’t up and park the project. We have already re-scoped considerably in light of available funds.

These funds are for launch, the network has funded us to produce what we are about to launch. We have done so on-schedule. Without this funding, like any other funded org (for example, VC funding of a business), we will need to make preparations to wind up. I don’t think that is understood very well here.

Thanks,
Drako
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0 points,2 months ago
760 is just too high a price tag right now. Until it's scaled back it's going to have to be a no for me.
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1 point,2 months ago
Hi Red,

Note that we have had to scale back considerably, as above. Recent price pressure has not been good for any proposal owner including ourselves.

Please read Arthyron’s post below, also our important announcement post, these give the necessary perspective.

We are on-schedule and require this funding to progress this through to launch, and if we are defunded we must consider winding up, or other options which effectively ends the Kuvacash project.

Happy to answer your further questions, I hope you can support our initiative to get this landed in Sept.

Thanks,
Drako
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0 points,2 months ago
Drako, here is my advice. You have a couple of options. You can lay off a few employees and reduce the price tag. Reduce the scope of what you planned to do this month. You might also consider finding a secondary funding sponsor. Kuvacash is clearly its own brand that you are building separate from Dash to be profitable for you in the future. Consider taking on an investor to supplement what you cannot hope to get from the network.
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0 points,2 months ago
Hi Red,

Thanks for your comment and suggestion. We’ve cut what we can and on top of this have price pressure that cuts almost all out contingency. We have as lean a team as is possible for the launch, in fact must take on additional operations staff now for launch, as you can understand.

The DAO has let us do what we have done so far with Kuvacash - investors have other incentives that don’t match with ours, I have discussed this in detail on the latest Dashwatch validation report video interview.

We are in talks with other proposal owners now, to see what can be done and ensure this project is not stopped when it’s about to launch.

Thanks,
Drako
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0 points,2 months ago
Drako, I had already watched the Dashwatch interview and was not satisfied with the answers given there. If you would, it would help if you would please elaborate on why you think investors have other incentives that don't match with yours.
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0 points,2 months ago
Hi Red,

The summary for the key incentive mismatch (also explained in detail in the video) is this; investors primarily expect profit/returns from Kuvacash primarily - and the MNO’s primarily expect sustainable adoption (as that is what would benefit Dash the most).

Not to mention getting profit out of Zimbabwe is difficult, but that’s not our primary aim since we align with the aims of MNO’s and the Dash community.

Thanks,
Drako
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1 point,2 months ago
Consider the word 'sustainable'. I associate this word with a positive feedback loop that sustains, somehow. Usually this means some model for revenue. How can adoption be sustainable without revenue? Even non-profits and charities have revenue. And this is the very thing that investors are interested in. So your answer makes no sense to me. Are you able to elaborate further?
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-2 points,2 months ago
Hi Red,

Not sure what your question is or what you are trying to imply.

Of course we are planning for revenue, from day one, and in fact to be eventually cashflow positive. But the difference in incentives is that our aim is not to ‘return to investors’ but to ‘land Dash as a money system’ in Zimbabwe, sustainably.

Does that answer your question?

Thanks,
Drako
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1 point,2 months ago
*****IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT*****

To our fellow MNO’s and community members:

We realise that given over 4400 Dash is now likely going to Dash Core Group that this month is very contentious. We are not happy about having been thrown in the ring with other proposals that also deserve funding given less than 23% remains of the budget for allocations.

But it is necessary to realise this; Kuva cannot flex its required funding requirements down any further - to do so would put our own commitments at risk. We are already well into our contingency given our projections, and 760 Dash were at the $240 price - so this has removed almost all contingency now. We cannot afford to be defunded at this stage of development - nor can we ‘park’ Kuvacash. We now have critical momentum and over 30 people involved in delivering this project - defunding would cause us the need to wind it up, as this would also incur costs and careful management of our own personal reputations in relation to the project, with others who are committed around us.

The network has paid us to deliver software, licenses and the requisite business structure on-schedule, and we have delivered. Last-hour defunding just prior to launch, for which we are ready for now does not seem rational, and I hope that people can see that. We have been above and beyond transparent with all that we do, I’m wondering if there isn’t some sort of ‘never try, never fail’ fatalism going on by certain members that will derail what has been a successful and on-target run towards accessing one of the most obvious opportunities for landing Dash in the world, bringing it to Zimbabwe where fiat has failed and we can now take the mantle.

As always, I am happy to speak with people on an individual basis, to answer any questions and give further context, just PM me (Max Yoga on DN)

Thanks,
Drako and Team Kuva
********
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0 points,2 months ago
Question 1)
I don't get the mentality that it's make or break, why can't a project go in power down mode ? Other projects have been able to do so

Questtion 1a)
If it was really the case that why on earth did you not cash in to USD as soon as you got the funds ? It seems like totally mismanaged risk management
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1 point,2 months ago
Hi A_node_to_a_master,

To answer your question, take an example - when a funded business or initiative ceases to be funded, it usually will wind up. There are a lot of moving parts and commitments we have made and it just isn’t realistic to expect that the project will somehow ‘park’ or ‘power down’. This isn’t a few people writing software part time or doing outreach in their spare time, it is a sophisticated organisation, business structure and project that has momentum, ongoing costs/commitments and involves a multitude of third parties.

2. This question has been answered multiple times, but once more for this new proposal; for one, community members and MNO’s state that they don’t like it when proposals just liquidate their Dash outright, as it would affect the market around pay-out time sharply. Secondly, some of our staff, including James and myself, are paid in Dash, so we need to retain it to pay ourselves. Thirdly, we have been very careful with funds and risk management around our proposal funding - this is why we have operated for over 8 months and not returned for exchange losses. It is a prudent method to manage your treasury in this way. And we’ve also had the situation recently where the calculated amount we required for a period dropped in price over the proposal funding period - all these are issues faced by all proposal owners, but arguably we’ve actually managed very well over the long-term bear market.

Hope this answers your questions,

Thanks,
Drako
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5 points,2 months ago
Enough is enough, I think it's time to stop the bleeding.
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4 points,2 months ago
Totally agree!
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6 points,2 months ago
I am really starting to think "Kuvacash" is a well orchestrated scam. We have pumped millions of dollars into this project so far with nothing to show for it except more pleas for money!!! Its time to pull the plug on this disaster and spend this money in South America where we are actually getting some results. BIG NO VOTE!!!
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4 points,2 months ago
Do you have evidence for this claim or are you just inept at using the internet? KuvaCash has been in constant, thorough communication with DashWatch, perhaps moreso than any other project. We've seen their product working live at MoneyConf in Dublin. They have reports available in text or video. You're just pulling this out of thin air, it's patently false. If you don't like the project and don't want to allocate any more funding toward it, that's up to you, but don't lie or propagate ignorance to bolster your position.
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0 points,2 months ago
"We've seen their product working live at MoneyConf in Dublin." - If this is not on video and easily available to be viewed by MNOs, then it really never happened.
Another point: Did the Kuvacash team fly to Dublin? If so, who paid for that? Did they fly to Los Angeles for interviews with Frame48? Who paid for that?
What about responsibly spending treasury funds? What about proving that goals have been achieved for the funding already spent?
Being in constant communication with DashWatch is not saying much, as DashWatch just reports to MNOs what the proposal owner claims. Do you really think that DashWatch asks the tough questions?
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2 points,2 months ago
That video is literally part of their regular updates, and the same video also includes some segments from the FanDuel proposal as well since DashRacer was also attending the conference. Your failure to do your due diligence as a MNO--for which the network is paying you--is not the fault or responsibility of KuvaCash.

Kuva's budget and expenditures are all detailed in their reports available on Dash Watch. Do your job.

The details of the Frame48 Documentary are part of their own proposal. That team chose Kuva as its initial subject because it was timely, but planned to document other projects and regions as well.

Kuva has already proven that they have achieved every goal and milestone they have outlined. They've been among the most transparent, forthcoming, and communicative projects with DashWatch out there.

If you had bothered to actually read the DW reports instead of using leading questions as rhetorical assertions, you would see that Kuva has completely opened their books to DW.

If you have problems with or questions about the performance or validity of DW, that's about DW, not Kuva.

You are not asking reasonable questions or placing reasonable expectations here. Why would you do that? (see how easy that was?)
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-2 points,2 months ago
"Do your job" - I think I have asked more pointed questions on this page than DashWatch has thus far. I consider that to be my job. This project has cost far more than anything except Core, and it is only correct that there be something to show for it, which I have asked for many times on this page.

The proposal owner has answered some of my questions, but I find his answers to be unfocused. Read my follow up to his answers. I can draw my own conclusions with the time I have to dedicate to this proposal, and frankly, I have already spent more time here than on any other proposal.

"If you had bothered to actually read the DW reports instead of using leading questions as rhetorical assertions" - I have already read the DW report (most recent) and watched a 2 hour video of responses by Drako. Over a million dollars spent by the DAO and we cannot ask tough questions? It is ridiculous.
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2 points,2 months ago
You've asked questions, but I would call them more uninformed or disinformed than "pointed." Curious that you don't ask the same "pointed" questions of other proposals, but only of the one which you--by your own admission--don't even understand the basics even though you've had 9+ months to do your due diligence. Stop trying to paint your biased questions as loyalty to the network. It's an expensive project, absolutely, and that demands a substantial performance to account for it, but it needs the opportunity to perform before its performance can be judged, and its cost has been accounted for so far to a far greater degree than most other proposals as well. Kuva's team has gone above and beyond in all these respects.

You don't find his answers to be unfocused, you just want him to do your work for you. This has already been established. Their team has done what has been required of them and more, all the information is there in palatable forms both visual and textual. The only hindrance is your refusal to take the time to do your job. All this time you've wasted explaining why you don't need to do your job could have been spent watching their videos or reading their documents and we wouldn't need to continue this conversation.

You've spent more time here than I've seen you ever spend on any proposal besides your own, and it's all been justifying why you won't do the job that so many others of us have been able to do. I spend more time on every proposal and pre-proposal than you've spent on this proposal. Suck it up. Do the job you're paid to do.

You're not asking *tough* questions, you're asking questions that already have answers because you're too lazy and biased to do due diligence. Catch yourself up and *then* by all means ask legitimately tough questions and make legitimate critcisms. All you've said so far that has any merit is you think this proposal is too expensive for what we're getting which is a claim that might have merit if it was coming from someone that actually took the time to understand the project and had specific reasons or evidence to substantiate this assertion, of which you are neither. Yes, it's an expensive project, and it's also doing some pretty substantial work, and to put things in perspective so far we've only spent on Kuva what we've been spending monthly or bi-monthly on Core, who are consequently also doing the same kind of work on a larger scale (software development, business development, integrations, regulatory compliance, etc). Imagine that.
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0 points,2 months ago
"Curious that you don't ask the same "pointed" questions of other proposals" - few other projects request hundreds of thousands of dollars per month. Alt36 is similar, and should be held to a similar standard, in my view. They haven't done much for Dash as of yet and it has been years in the making.

"too lazy and biased to do due diligence" - I am not so biased that I resort to calling others "lazy" or claiming that they "lack basic knowledge".
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0 points,2 months ago
Few other projects are doing anything close to the scope of KuvaCash on their own. The one exception might be Alt36 and the Dash Embassy DACH, and they've run in to similarly unwarranted criticisms, but I don't recall ever seeing you post anything to this effect in the last 9 months on this or in regards to Alt36. You've had ample opportunity to familiarize yourself with this project and criticize its requests for funding or scope all along. You have thus far failed to do so, so where were you all this time, and why do you suddenly care (just not enough to do your due diligence) now that they're on the cusp of launching?

You complain that they haven't launched, and then when they want to launch you don't want to let them. Hmm.

That's not what biased means, and I never said you lacked "basic knowledge," I said you lacked knowledge and you demonstrably do both of how economies function, how payment processors work, and by your own admission of the basic details of this proposal and what it entails, so I'm not sure why you're blaming me for pointing this out as a reason that your criticisms are disingenuous and unwarranted.
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-1 point,2 months ago
DashRiprock does not need to present evidence for his claim. All he is claiming is that he is starting to think that Kuvacash is a scam. It is presented as his opinion, which should be perfectly acceptable.
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2 points,2 months ago
He absolutely does, and beyond the initial claim there are some very general assertions made about the nature and state of the project which are false, thus his claim is--at best--completely unfounded even if it is his opinion and I will absolutely demand he justify his opinions when opinions have an outcome on voting. I will do the same with anyone else as well.
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6 points,2 months ago
Yeah I agree. Let's not forget that trillions have been pumped into Africa the past 100 years too with no results. Just saying - it is very politically corrupt there.

I was okay with supporting small African projects here and there, but this is too much. I'm also in general against Dash paying for other people's businesses.
Dash shouldn't have to pay people to use Dash and start Dash businesses which they themselves will benefit from. The treasury is for development and promotion primarily in my view.

Adding my 12 no votes to yours.
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1 point,2 months ago
Wow, let's just ignore the impacts of Colonization and Imperialism and the extraction of literally trillions of dollars of resources from a continent and blame the victims as corrupt. This is what happens when you don't read books, folks. Ill-informed, borderline xenophobic comments like this are not reasonable metrics for assessing the merits of any particular proposal.

Do you want the projects we fund to become self-sufficient or not? Do you want literally every project we fund to come back to the trough month after month to continue functioning or do you want to fund projects that are eventually able to stand on their own and keep supporting the network for perpetuity? You can't have it both ways. Pick one.
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1 point,2 months ago
There are numerous historical and present events to reflect on, such as:
Colonisation by Europeans has yielded many benefits to African nations. The populations have exploded via supplies of cleaner water, farming practices, plumbing, electricity, vehicles, medicines, computers, western based societal structures, computers and blockchain tech brought about mainly by people carrying on the legacy of western societies culture of invention.
The extracted resources from African soils are but one part of the picture, and yes, at times it can be extremely exploitive. No different though, to exploitative practices by Africans themselves over slaves and resources.
Generally, the main killers of African people across the world are other people of African descent. African governments are notorious for outlandish corruption. I don't give passes to thieves, no matter what their race.
Colonisation by one African tribe over another tribes land has no doubt been taking place over thousands of years. The Zulu for example, take no prisoners. Despite the attempt by the English to eradicate slavery, it is still maintained in some places by Berbers and Arabs. Africans themselves have been slave traders, and slave masters no doubt. (not all..as per everything).
Slavic (slaves) have been a significant part of the slavery equation.
Indeed, my ancestors were surely serfs (serves), whom lead lives no better than many slaves from about the world historically.
I would certainly love to see the gift more western culture centric technology, such as ventures funded by the Dash treasury, making for even more positive differences within the African landscape.
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-3 points,2 months ago
Hi 3d1409ae,

This is not an expensive project, and we have been delivering against our schedule.
I hope you will consider in light of the progress we have made - also, note that we are doing things the RIGHT way, not paying 'trillions' in charity for no result other than making people dependent on it - but taking a totally different approach. We are providing a money system based on Dash that people can use to live and do business with; in short, an enabler for their life not a handout.

I hope you will reconsider in light of this, we have been working to deliver everything needed to implement this launch over the last 8 months, and we're now on the eve of our launch. As I mentioned to DashRipRock, consider being on the right side of history here.

Thanks,
Drako
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0 points,2 months ago
Above post from Kuvateam - (Drako is Lemonysnicket for those who were not aware)
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7 points,2 months ago
Look at what they have done in Venezuela with a tiny fraction of the money we have given you. The trading volume for Dash is now larger than Bitcoin in Venezuela and they have over 700 merchants accepting Dash plus they developed a texting app for sending and receiving Dash. All you have is videos talking about what you plan to do but never actually do. Sorry, but you had to know the gravy train would run dry sooner or later with no results. Too bad for us it was later. Sell your masternode and use the money to fund your project. Besides, I don't remember paying for your masternode to be part of the project's budget.
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2 points,2 months ago
What has taken place so far in Venezuela is not "Mass Adoption," but the building blocks for it. KuvaCash has just now gotten to the place where they're actually able to perform, and right before the curtain rises you're asking the theater to close. Comparing Kuva and VZ is a false equivalency, see my post above.
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-1 point,2 months ago
Hi DashRiprock,

You are also quite mistaken with respect to us having a 'masternode' to sell. For 25 days while we ramped up, we parked funds in a MN which was then liquidated when we were actually up and runnning.

We have never set up another MN since, nor would we do so if we had the funds, as we're in full swing now.

Thanks,
Drako
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7 points,2 months ago
You still haven't answered these questions. How has Kuvacash benefited the Dash network so far??? Tell me about the merchant adoption in Zimbabwe??? What tangible things have you accomplished???
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-4 points,2 months ago
Your questions have been answered many times.

Either view/read the answers or quit spamming.
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-1 point,2 months ago
Hi DashRiprock,

If you are suggesting that we now not launch Kuvacash in Zimbabwe, you're going to find yourself on the wrong side of not just history, but also what most MNO's expect the Kuva team to do.

Kuvacash was paid for by the network, delivered by an elite team over 8 months, on-schedule, transparently and attested/validated in July by one of the largest Dashwatch reports ever created for a project. This is in addition to our own updates and Q&A's, and historic Kuvacash Dashwatch reports.

We are now moving to launch Kuvacash in Zimbabwe and make the network proud, as per our schedule. I think you might find that your position is quite baffling to me and most other MNO's here.

Thanks,
Drako
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0 points,2 months ago
How has Kuvacash benefited the Dash network so far??? Tell me about the merchant adoption in Zimbabwe??? What tangible things have you accomplished??? Sell your masternodes and fund your project!!! We will give your money to projects that don't have masternodes. Why should we trust someone who refuses to put any skin in the game. If you really believed in Kuvacash you would invest some of your own money to make it succeed since you will reap all of the rewards.
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-1 point,2 months ago
Hi DashRiprock,

I feel that you are now starting to spam this proposal.

Anyone that has a Dash masternode has skin in Kuvacash, since when we land Dash in Zimbabwe we will have achieved a historic outcome and the price of Dash would likely reflect that.

Of course I have invested my own funds in Kuva, and I believe that everyone should have skin in the game for their projects - not that it is a prerequisite for posting a project on here.

Also, it is clear you have never participated in an update or read a single report from Kuvacash. We are developing a remittances and P2P payments platform primarily, and then moving into merchant services. It appears that you are grasping at straws to criticise the project, to what end?

Thanks,
Drako
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5 points,2 months ago
What are the results of your work? Show me something tangible. Venezuela has tangible results. What do you have?
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0 points,2 months ago
Hi DashRiprock,

The result is that we have built apps and software, business partnerships, become regulated to the highest tier and are ready to operate in Zimbabwe. As per our plan, and on-schedule.

Kuva is now moving to launch. As would be expected by all other MNO’s here. We are a leveraged proposition, and therefore quite different to the grassroots efforts in Venezuela. Are you saying that the only way to launch Dash in a country is what has been done so far in Venezuela? And because of your opinion, Kuva should therefore not launch in Zimbabwe?

Because that doesn’t make sense.

Thanks,
Drako
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0 points,2 months ago
If you launch as you say, you will have my votes in your next funding request.
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1 point,2 months ago
They announced months ago that they would begin their pilot project in September and would need funding for the launch. It's really not Kuva's fault that you haven't been keeping yourself up to speed.
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-2 points,2 months ago
Cut the nonsense please.

If they aren’t funded there is no launch.

We need to support Kuva right now so they can run the pilot.

This is a no-brainer.
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-6 points,2 months ago
Hi DashRiprock,

It seems like you have not actually watched any of our 6 update videos or the ongoing multiple reports and validation from Dashwatch. The very latest one is a full attestation and validation of financials, Kuvacash software working on Livenet, licenses etc? I'm guessing not. Here it is for your convenience:

https://dashwatch.org/files/1532801904838.pdf

This is funding to LAUNCH Kuvacash now, because we actually have delivered the software, licenses and partnerships required for us to do so on-schedule and with a well-managed budget. The treasury have not pumped millions into this project at all, you are very misinformed, clearly you have not kept up to date with the project. Full financials show just on 1M USD, for an team working AND delivering for the DAO over the last 8 months.

I suggest actually start engaging with the Kuvacash project, read the reports and understand the progress we have made. Kuvacash is a key strategic initiative for Dash, and it is about to be put into the hands of people who need it. You might want to be on the right side of history here.

Thanks,
Drako
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2 points,2 months ago
So far it seems like Kuvacash's only accomplishment is getting Masternode owners to give them tons of money.
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-1 point,2 months ago
Only accomplishment?

Have you followed the project at all, or watched and read the many updates?

Dashriprock, it takes research, signing of deals, govt licenses, back-end and legal structures to land a big project like Kuva in Zimbabwe (and beyond).

The team have hit ALL milestones. Just ask the Dash Watch team who did the latest audit.

I've taken the liberty to provide a direct link to the shiny Kuvacash wallet demo (below) if anyone wants to see it functioning (~3 and a half minutes in).

https://youtu.be/yjVUk66qNXM?t=3m37s

The guys are ready for the pilot, calling for a defund now would be absolutely ridiculous, whatever your reasons.

Let’s put some thought into what we are saying, instead of spamming on repeat.
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-1 point,2 months ago
I was about to watch the video you posted till I saw you accusing me of spamming. I don't put up with that sort of thing. I assume you know what you can do with your video.
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1 point,2 months ago
Placing unreasonable demands on others and conveniently refusing to capitulate to the met demands due to some arbitrary, perceived "slight." How many times are you going to make this excuse?
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-3 points,2 months ago
Your motive is clear.

You aren’t interested in answers to your questions, you are only interested in spamming and trying to torpedo a proposal for your own personal reasons...
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