
Proposal “dashwhale-basic“ (Closed)Back
Title: | Dashwhale basic funding |
Owner: | rango |
Monthly amount: | 160 DASH (6962 USD) |
Completed payments: | no payments occurred yet (6 month remaining) |
Payment start/end: | / 2016-05-21 (added on 2015-10-10) |
Final voting deadline: | in passed |
Votes: | 205 Yes / 498 No / 0 Abstain |
External information: | www.dashwhale.org/p/dashwhale-basic |
Proposal description
Dear friends,
Dashwhale.org is the platform, providing personal masternode monitoring, budget proposal discussion, as well as convenient and secure proposal voting. 136 masternode owners with 538 masternodes are registered at the date of this post. Given the fact that some known large whales did not explicitly register all their masternodes, it's safe to say that users beeing responsible for at least 40% of all masternodes are registered at Dashwhale.
Proposal discussion and judgement is important for every DASH owner. It's the same with high quality school education, which should be accessible for everybody for free. If you charge for it, this leads to a negative impact and disbalance for the whole society. Dashwhale should be a open access and not poisened with the direct need to generate DASH by a regular subscription model.
Therefore we are asking for a basic funding of 160 DASH a month to cover operating costs and tip external app developer.
Best,
Rango
Dashwhale.org is the platform, providing personal masternode monitoring, budget proposal discussion, as well as convenient and secure proposal voting. 136 masternode owners with 538 masternodes are registered at the date of this post. Given the fact that some known large whales did not explicitly register all their masternodes, it's safe to say that users beeing responsible for at least 40% of all masternodes are registered at Dashwhale.
Proposal discussion and judgement is important for every DASH owner. It's the same with high quality school education, which should be accessible for everybody for free. If you charge for it, this leads to a negative impact and disbalance for the whole society. Dashwhale should be a open access and not poisened with the direct need to generate DASH by a regular subscription model.
Therefore we are asking for a basic funding of 160 DASH a month to cover operating costs and tip external app developer.
Best,
Rango
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Discussion: Should we fund this proposal?
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Putting up some kind of prediscussion suits many projects, but not really this one. Here, there is no real room for adjustments. Lower monthly amount to get approval? If you take some DASH from blockchain funding, you have to inform masternode owners and discuss. That consumes 1-X hours of work a month. A lower monthly amount (80 DASH) does not even cover work to do "investor relations" and does not cover operating costs. So doing such kind of low budget proposal would not lead to any coverage of costs but somehows brings some "depencency of others".
This proposal had a quite positive effect. It ultimatively proved that Dashwhale is a suitable platform to handle proposal description and discussion in one place. 47 comments so far and some side strikes on BCT. Dashwhale made it's way to so many new minds in the community. You can not get much more ROI for the invested fee and time :)
Really receiving the funding would be the "cherry on the cake". Most people voted no think "funding a 3rd party website like this is a precedent which should be avoided". This judgement is only scratches the surface. And i admit, i was not able to get the vision of this project into everybodys minds so far. Dashwhale is not compareable to any other 3rd party sites.
Proposal discussion and judgement is important for every DASH owner. High quality school education should be accessible for everybody for free. If you charge for it, this leads to a negative impact and disbalance for the whole society. It's exactly the same with Dashwhale funding. Besides, this was the reason for me to choose dashwhale.org and NOT dashwhale.com as the domain name for this project.
In the mean time, I still think it benefits the Dash project as a whole, as it's not only for Masternode owners, but anyone who wishes to participate.
Yes the centralize some information.
Butthe site don't have any power on DASH, the site is not centralized!!! Can't make modification on DASH network or anything like this.
I've got 2 masternodes. I kind of feel like voting once each way - obviously a ridiculous thing to do. The site is fantastic and I would not want to loose it. The other thing about this proposal, however, is that it's going to set a precedent because it's the first one of this type - where the beneficiary has been the one making the proposal.
All I can say is - thank god we've got another 26 days to think about it.
The vote should be about whether this proposal adds more value for the masternode owners and DASH network than the amount asked.
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How to allow an active and easy democratic process for budget decisions with raising amount of proposals?
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The issues:
1. We will have 10-20 proposals per month in the near future
2. With high amounts of proposals it's illusional to do the discussion in multiple threads of the Dashtalk forum (untructured, unprofessional information process)
3. Information get lost. To cope with this we need one central place to be.
4. Budget review, discussion and voting has to be easy for high voting participation
5. From finance and technical perspective it's not possible to do proposal presentation & discussion on a "decentralized platform" within reasonable time and money
Possible solutions:
1. Core team puts up a +10k USD proposal to create a new platform (compareable to Dashwhale)
2. Core team looses focus and implements a "decentralized" proposal presentation and discussion feature. To my opinion technically challenging if not impossible within reasonable time. Somebody external will charge about 50-500k USD
3. Sit and wait. Ignoring the issues outlined above decreases quality of the democratic process, leading to a) malallocation of funds b) loss of ideas c) loss of central discussion issues by time => hurting DASH investor value
4. Monetize Dashwhale like any other website. Monetizing Dashwhale a regular way hurts open access to the platform and impairs democratic process (ads, highlighted proposals)
5. Invest 2% of the total budget for 6 month to see, if Dashwhale can solve these issues relevant for every masternode owner and every DASH owner.
I'm curious if maybe http://www.quelsolaar.com/verse/ could be used to make this happen? It's used for interactive collaboration, but I'm thinking it could be modified for this type of idea?
This service will become only more necessary and utilized as time goes on.
Voted.
I feel that this site promotes Dash as a whole even if only a portion of the masternodes use it. There is no other site like it. Now, if Rango gets lazy over time, or someone else comes out with a kick-butt improvement, then I would switch my support to that one. The point is... let's reward those who push Dash forward.
I actually like this better than the pay-first / show-later approach of the marketing, and other dev-sponsered projects. Rango built it first and then when he had something to show, asked for support. Bravo!
I like the 6-month approach. Not a big deal to support for 6 months. That much better than asking for 5 years support that we MUST downvote to get it off the books. This one clears itselft and must be reimplemented if found worthy.
Finally, for those big masternode owners out there that do not use the site... please keep in mind that this site promotes Dash even if you don't use it. It makes Dash look (and actually does make it) easier to get involved. How will it look if Dash Whale whithered away and nothing replaced it? It would look like Dash itself is dying... think about it!
Will you be adding a random delayed vote option so it isn't possible to tell masternodes that vote together?
Maybe partner with providers to offer discounts on masternode hosting? Or even offer integrated hosting?
Just thinking out of the box, if you could offer hosting for test nodes, maybe that would gain more support by those not currently using your service.
We don't have plans to go for masternode hosting. We already received some requests to partner with already existing masternode hosters. Doing some kind of structured recommendation for hosting services might be a future funding source which does not put pain on anybody. There are some more ideas how to move forward :)
* are we willing to use a central tool to vote with our decentralised masternodes ?
* are we spending our funds wisely as not everyone uses this site to vote?
* if we as cryptocurrency want to achieve mainstream adoption there has to be an easy and simple way to vote
without having to rely on accessing either our cold or hot wallet...
After carefully thinking these points through i decided that i will give this site a trial period of 6 months which means you will have my yes vote .. for now.
1) It feels like a clear conflict of interest for Masternode owners to vote "yes" on something that only benefits them.
2) Complimentary to #1, as Masternode owners it is our responsibility to ensure that funds are used for the improvement of the currency/network as a whole. I don't feel that this budget proposal fulfills that requirement.
I DO think you have talent, are smart and an all around good guy. You've built an attractive and useful site. I also believe you should be compensated, but only by the people who want to use your services. If it were one of my sites, I would deem features "premium" like notifications and voting, even the chat. I'd put a few ads up as well.
Good luck on your proposal.
Thank you for your kind words and valid concerns.
If you want to hire an agency in regular business life to build a website like this, you have to write a book of specifications. Roughly 30-50 pages. This takes you some manweeks. When this is done, you have to hire an agency to do the graphics design and the software implementation. They will charge you 10-20k USD for the current Dashwhale implementation. If you want them to do the monthly maintenance with 24/7 uptime guarantee they charge you a fixed sum of 500-1000 USD per month. Because they assume at least 5 manhours of work per month (60-120 USD per hour) and enterprise dedicated server incl. DDoS protection and dedicated firewall 100-300 USD a month.
If you want somebody in real life to build a tiny iOS or android app, you pay 1000-3000 USD.
I just ask for a valid 360 USD per month to cover basic operations to keep this site open for everybody, as long as it provides enough benefit. If you want to give 200 USD a month for this, that would simply not be a real life price for this kind of quality service. I am not going to run a data sensitive service like this on a quality level lower than described above.
This will set a precedent because once you get funded, you and anyone with a website that was not commissioned will post proposals and expect them to be approved each time.
My point is that you made this site on your own. Even though there are fantastic services offered, the foundation/community did not commission this and hence should not be responsible for YOUR costs. You should be recouping them just like every other site does by charging a fee, managing your overhead and only upgrading when necessary.
This site does not need a dedicated server with a 24/7 sla, nor does it need $100-$300 DDOS protection (which is it by the way, 100 or 300?). If you are paying for these items, you should disclose the bills so we don't feel taken advantage of.
Data sensitive. Did you mean data intensive like every other database driven site on the planet? I run a few larger websites myself with many millions of pageviews each month and I believe you could be managing your costs better.
Is it truly a dedicated server or is it just a virtual machine? What are the specs? Are you running the database in the same VM as the web server?
I'm sorry but you failed to convince me that you are even going to pay the bills with the DASH. It's oddly very close to the amount needed for an MN.
Other than your time, what REALLY are the costs? Prove them to us please.
You aim to distract people from the relevant central problem "How to allow an easy democratic process for budget voting with raising amount of proposals". To focus on this, i opened a new thread. What is your solution to this problem?
Hosting these days is cheap, even for high availability, redundant, DDoS protected VPS solutions.
What I do agree with Rango on is that the labour costs for creating a site like this would be upwards of £40 per hour in the UK, if not more to be honest.. So in that regard I can understand how the $60 an hour figure has been worked out.
As for the pros/cons of the funding? I'm really caught in two minds about it! Ultimately, I admire greatly what Rango has achieved, however, I see it as a commercial venture and one for which Rango needs to find a commercial business model with which to fund, should he wish to develop it further. I don't doubt that the site is beneficial to the ecosystem as a whole, but it does set a dangerous precedent should this commercial venture gain blockchain funding.
I haven't made a decision which way to vote yet. I'm going to wait and see, hopefully we'll have some more discussion on the matter :)
I saw a potential abuse (even if that was not your intent) and I am shining a light on it. This could have been hosted on a much cheaper plan somewhere, period. I'm sorry but $375/mo for something that would be used by at most 3k-ish members is simply way over priced. Red flags left and right there. This is a privately owned un-commissioned site. I have a problem funding it from the blockchain without full disclosure, (which we never got). We should have seen invoices for the hosting, DDOS protection and the man hours that you are paying for. What they are really doing for 5 hours each month. I'm a little confused on that point because I know my web servers and DB servers don't require that much work each month and I have quite a few more than you.
I don't use this site to vote on aside of the one time at first to try it. I didn't feel overly comfortable with it, I may end up re-initialising my MN because of it. I don't have a problem pasting a line of code into my MN and hitting enter to vote, but I CAN see where others may want your service. They are the ones that should pay for the convenience and I am willing to bet that you will do just fine.
iOS and Android dev's developed their apps without charging anything. So they are free to put up ads, to get at least a tiny amount back.
You already own 40 DASH.
O.O, one MN. Lol
After 6 month what you'll do? No more funding or you'll find it elsewhere? Or you didn't put too long to not afraid voter?
Can you give a little more detail about those 160 dash needed.
And last question did some DASh will go to dev of the android mobile app?
6 month a clear timeframe, that everybody can oversee and is able to commit to. After that 6 month, we can all evaluate again and check, if this site provides enough benefit to our community to justify funding or if there there is even a business model for this site to survive without a proposal and without subscriptions.
The 160 DASH cover hosting (dedicated server with DDoS protection), geographical independent backup, external website monitoring service and at least 5 manhours per month, to keep this site up and running safely. Not relevant for this proposal, but just for information: 3 manmonths of devtime have been put into making this site what it is today. And that was great fun so far. Further work is ongoing.
The android and iOS apps have been released by the devs, because they really like this project. Further improvements of the apps (budget integration) will require some "love" to encourage them. These funds will be taken from my own pockets and hopefully beefed up a bit by personal donations of masternode owners.
Please let me know, if there are further questions.
I'm not seeing it...?
Very nice...