Welcome!

Here we go: https://www.btc-echo.de/cash-fuer-dash-kryptowaehrung-an-oesterreichischen-tankstellen/

Is there any update on this? I just looked at both websites and no mention of Dash.

sorry for the late reply... Dash will be available in both service from the 1st of april

Essra, I decided, after everything being written yesterday, to write a new comment:

Hold on to a table because I criticize not only the quality of the proposal but the judgment of the community as a whole. Good thing I didn't have any friends here so I can't loose any.

This plan lacks transparency and some clear-cut measurable ROI. Through extensive questioning I found out:

- Coinfinity - doesn't have a license to attend Germany, Switzerland
- Bitcoinbon - Unknown market positioning against competition Bitpanda

Let's just judge the math based on the numbers given. in this case the strategy simply won't meet the unclear objective.

How can a proposal like this pass?

I understand the 'early adopters know what is best for the network'- concept (as explained on DFN) but reading the faulty proposal, the heated discussions and the lack of sound arguments I believe they should pay more objective attention to the quality of the work from, especially, Slack friends. This is not the first time I ran into this problem.

A lot of people are watching this -free money thing- now... Does that makes sense in this context?

I know some of Jan-Heinrich's work and I do not doubt his capabilities and hopefully he will do more tons of great work for Dash, but I presume the misinformation is a result of lack of experience.

So please learn from my critics and prepare better next time.

hi paulkuit, as mentioned below I´m very thankfull for your replies. I know this proposal may look a bit confusing and I totally understand, that you don´t want to make the DAO pay for integration, because you think brokers and other fiat/crypto services should add Dash by theirselves, but some do not. So if they don´t want to add Dash voluntary, fortunately Dash has other oppurtunities. This is the way distribution works in every other branch in the whole wide world.

Most of the points in your comment above are answered in my replies on all your other comments. And as also mentioned already, I´ll try to create better proposals in future, but if there are numbers missing I won´t be able to work with them, no matter how hard I try. And finally: bitpanda and coinfinity may be competitors and of course one may be better as the other one, but this is no reason for just being available at one of these services.

sincerly,
jan

Hi Jan, I am not trying to have the last word on this, unless my point was misunderstood.

I did not write I think exchanges should integrate by themselves. Instead I tried to keep my arguments clear, honest and objective and not to express or suggest any beliefs.

I did object the fact that suggested integration (Coinfinity) has a limited reach, and especially the fact it doesn't meet the stated objective.

If there are numbers missing (Bitcoinbon) we should try to find them. This applies not only to your proposal, but to all. No successful business start with an incomplete business plan. Just trying to raise the bar here... And I see you can handle it :) Chapeau!

Thank you for sincerely considering my hopefully constructive critics, much appreciated. Dash Für Alle!

Sincerely,
Paul

You have my support @essra
Thank you for you proposal

Thank you, blockchaintech.

Is the proposal owner not aware of the fact that BOTH COMPANIES state by email that they both ARE ALREADY IMPLEMENTING DASH.
Here their mails in German:
Coinfinity GmbH
Guten Tag,
danke für die Anfrage. Derzeit können Sie bei uns Dash nur auf Anfrage und für Beträge über 5.000 EUR erwerben. Wir werden DASH aber in den kommenden Wochen in unsere online-Plattform integrieren, so dass Sie auch über coinfinity.co DASH kaufen können. Ein genaues Datum können wir Ihnen hier aber noch nicht nennen.
Mit besten Grüßen.,
Max Tertinegg
Coinfinity GmbH
Griesgasse 10
8020 Graz
------------------------------------------------
www.bitcoinbon.at
Question :Kann man bei Ihnen auch DASH erwerben?( Translation:can you buy DASH from you?)
Bitcoinbon Support Answer:Momentan noch nicht, unser Entwicklerteam arbeitet allerdings daran dies zu integrieren.(Translation: Not at the moment but our development team is working on DASHS integration)
Mit besten Grüßen,
Bitcoinbon Team

Why spend 40000 $ for promises of pressanouncments and anouncments on coming websites of these companies for something that they describe as being partly implemented or coming anyway?

hi ash,

max gave you this answer, because we are both very confident, that this proposal passes. Max, you and me can have a skype call if you like. You can even talk to me on Discord or have a phone call. This time I don´t really get your approach. If you don´t like the proposal, just vote "no".

I much rather discuss these things in public, thanks for the invitation.

Hi, I know all the players involved and I don't quite get the critique. It is exactly how Essra describes it and I think one could start giving him the benefit of the doubt. I have also worked on convincing Max Tertinegg in the past and it is great that Essra made this proposal to finally give them that opportunity because they are a small team and kept telling me in the past that they "currently lack the resources". Well, we (DASH) have them now. BTW, it is not Coinfinitys fault, that Germany is so strict about the licensing compared to Austria.

Refusing an invitation to clear up everything and resolve all of your "reservations" (no MNO badge=irrelevant anyway) just proves that your only interest is to perpetuate this argument, not to come to a solution. You're a self admitted troll.

So you call me a troll and just because you dont' like my arguments you'd prefer them discussed anywhere but not in the discussions-forum where they belong in order to facilitate informed decisions in full transpareny.
Your masternode badge seems to have slipped because you wear it at the wrong place: now It blinds your eyes for several facts, f.i. that arguments should count and not self-righteous bumptiousness(...." no MNO badge=irrelevant anyway") , that people who dont wear badges could well be more than cattle with "pie holes" and having good arguments - , they could "even" be mastenodeowners , that don'like posing with them like you do. But i think you could not imagine that.
"Due diligence" without any discussion - or discussion apart from the forum - is impossible.

No MNO badge=Anything you say is worthless and irrelevant, just like the ridiculous downvotes from your sockpuppet accounts. Why do you think these badges were introduced? To filter out exactly the kind of nonsense people like you are spreading here.

Everything I said in the comment you replied to is objectively correct. You refused to clear up misunderstandings so you ARE a troll. And I will repeat it a million times. You are a troll because of your dishonest actions and I relish in the fact that this proposal passes and you can't do anything about it. Too bad for you you couldn't vote, huh?

You said in your proposal ".....even I´m added as team member on dash.org, I don´t receice any payments from Core. This is just because a listing makes my work a lot easier with events, press and so on...!"
But on the official dash.org site https://www.dash.org/team/ (where it doesn't claim that you are paid by Core ) it says ""Appointed by our Network and funded from the blockchain on a monthly basis " and you are listed as the last person
Could you please elaborate on that?

Ash, I don´t get paid by Core. I think someone of Core would have written a comment on this proposal, if I would get paid by them. If you don´t trust me and want to make me a lieer, please get in contact with Core by yourself.

You are repeating yourself - but unfortunately you give NO answer to my question. The question was: do you get monthly payments (not from "Core"! -but- as stated on the official dash.org site https://www.dash.org/team/ )..." funded from the blockchain on a monthly basis " ????

He is not paid by core. What he says is the truth, confirmed by other Core members when I was in HK.

I think ash is not aware of the fact that core runs dash.org

Do people actually know they are paying 8%-10% fee on bitcoinbon? That seems like a rip-off. Why would people want to pay such a high fee? Or is it hidden and do they not realize it?

hi mastertube, thank you for your reply. the fee is listed on the website.

After personally meeting essra and experiencing his stage presence live I can with good conscience fully vouch for his endeavours to promote and integrate Dash. He's a networking genius (Director of Deutsche Bank just added him on LinkedIn!) and true asset to this community. It goes without saying that this integration in particular is extremely valuable and confirms essra as a key person in Europe pushing Dash forward. I look forward to all the future projects he spoke to me about.

Hi Macrochip
I thought you were an advocat of DUE DILIGENCE after reading your remarks: (https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/is-dash-force-news-going-rogue.17596/#post-144105) "Our Treasury is handing out cold hard cash and does this (every once in a while) with a dangerous lack of due diligence. This attracts the worst kinds of people. The first step to mend this fault is to expose these people, even if they're close to us."

Now you recommend the proponent and his proposal on very personal grounds.
Although I can see also that essra "is a networking genius" ( not quite in the sense you put it!) I think that the fact that the "Director of Deutsche Bank just added him on LinkedIn" is a very questionable argument . I would like to remind you that the last three Deutsche Bank Chefs had to step down (https://goo.gl/bbM8J4) for being involved in scandalous -even criminal- legal affairs. That DB ist one of the great banks involved in criminal Libor (https://goo.gl/pqQ1Xd)-, Gold (https://goo.gl/vaA8L3) - Silver (https://goo.gl/jGqiZK) , and mortgage securities (https://goo.gl/4ubPYX) manipulations and that they have plenty of legal (https://goo.gl/1CH4Gx) and immense financial problems. A lot of people- and by the way the IMF -(https://goo.gl/pyLUQC) think that they are the ones that will bring down the whole financial system having an unmanageable exposure to financial derivatives . So its not necessarily good to be linked to people like that.
When dealing with this proposal one should not forget: you can buy Dash vouchers in every postoffice in Austria already (See: https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-ether-dash-and-litecoin-1800-austrian-post-offices/).
On the other hand the proposal owner himself tells you " I quit my job and only work for Dash now, that´s why I need to keep them (the proposals) coming ;-)".
I am sure he should and could do a better job than this proposal where he tries to sell a few simple press anouncements and website anouncements for over 40000 $. The implementation of dash being already partly achieved and partly in work is confirmed in both of the mentioned companies and is not dependant on his proposal. I fear that if "key persons for Dash" continue marketing DASH like this it's avail to nothing for Dash but just for the depletion of funds-

>on very personal grounds.

Wrong. I recommend him, because of his solid track record of past successes you seem to be blissfully unaware of. Essra has done several Dash presentations during FinTech events and spearheaded the integration at the House of Nakamoto as well.

And I don't know what kind of desperate spin you're trying to put on his networking skills, but the Deutsche Bank director was ONE EXAMPLE. He had his wallet completely crammed with business cards from high profile individuals he connected with THAT DAY.

>When dealing with this proposal one should not forget: you can buy Dash vouchers in every postoffice in Austria already

So? Is adding more places to buy Dash at a bad thing? How is that even relevant? What if one has lower fees than the other Do you understand the concept of competition?

>On the other hand the proposal owner himself tells you " I quit my job and only work for Dash now, that´s why I need to keep them (the proposals) coming ;-)".

Which only proves so much more his commitment to this project. If you have the balls to quit your day job to serve Dash exclusively, THEN we can talk. Until then, kindly shut your piehole.

> is not dependant on his proposal.

That is your wrong assumption, not a fact. Essra explained that integration work began under the assumption of this proposal passing. You don't get your salary at the beginning of the month either.

>I fear that if "key persons for Dash" continue marketing DASH like this it's avail to nothing for Dash but just for the depletion of funds-

Who the hell are you anyway? You came in here trying to start nothing but trouble with tons of false assumptions, accusations and outright falsehoods. You don't even have an MNO badge so your opinion is basically worthless anyway. Essra shouldn't have to answer any of your provocative questions in the first place.

You wanna talk "due diligence" to me? Then stop confusing it with a smear campaign, because that's all you've done so far. I'm done with you.

I'ḿ sorry to mix in this -already heated- discussion, but I am sure a lot of people would love to drop their job and work for Dash, that is no reason to shut anyones hole.

In this plan the strategy doesn't fulfill the objective (doesn't attend Germany nor Switserland) and now I also read the market investigation part wasn't properly executed or communicated (already selling paper wallets?).

So let's talk about pricing then, how are we better than the competition?

Hello paulkuit, as mentioned below I´m sorry for the confusion with Germany and Switzerland. I want to work on integration of Dash in all three german speaking countries and this is the first step. I shouldn´t have mention the other two countries above, because this proposal is only connected to austria. I did so, because I wanted to show that is is only the first step I´ll take to do what I was asked for.

At the moment neither coinfinity nor bitcoinbon are selling Dash officially. Means that Dash is not technically integrated in their basic services and this is what I want to change through this proposal.

May you please help me with your last question? I don´t really understand the meaning of it.

Hi Essra, no problem, I just wished you were more honest in your objective, instead I had to find out through questions the strategy doesn't attend -completely-. Excuse accepted.

Sorry for the brevity in my last question. I repeat:

Currently there are other vouchers being sold in Austria by another company, correct?

How much fees do we charge?
How much fees do they charge?

How big is their market penetration (estimate amount POS)?

Sorry for making this so hard,

Regards!

All good. You need to ask and I need to learn to do a better job.

Bitpanda is the other company in Austria selling "crypto-vouchers". They are available at post-offices. Here is the link: https://www.bitpanda.com/togo/en

The number of post-offices that are participating is big, but adding Dash to bitcoinbon (petrol stations & kiosks) will increase the number of POS selling Dash a lot.

Unfortunately I can´t find the tax bitpanda makes their customers pay.

I hope this helps

I'm sorry Jan-Heinrich, I don 't think I need to ask if your strategy aligns with your objective. .

I want to see what it brings (which I couldn't initially) and what it costs.

Since our objective is clear now - to make Dash more accessible to the Austrians - it is important to consider competition. Doesn't help to place a more expensive product in the market, right? Doesn't bring Dash anything. It is already accessible.

By not knowing your competitor and failing to inform how you will position your product in the market you failed to make a solid plan.

Do you agree?

Hi paulkit. No, I don´t, because this is about distribution using different services. Both services need to compete with each other, I totally agree with you in this point, but it´s not our task to decide which service is best.

What Dash needs is to be available at as much places as possible. It´s not only about the access, it´s also about visibility. Dash could be available at 1,800 petrol stations and 2,200 kiosks. The traffic in petrol stations and kiosks is much higher than in post-offices. Both (visibility and access) will people make feel much more confident about Dash, because it´s omnipresent and starts do be part of their daily life.

Imagine you are a producer of... let´s say choclate. To sell your choclate you use several resellers. A discounter and a delicacy invite for example. The price at the discounter may be lower, but if you don´t cooperate with the delicacy invite people who visit the delicacy invite will buy a choclate of another producer. They don´t even get to know you.

Anyway... bitpanda is not our (or as you say my) competitor. Bitpanda is just another channel for distribution, using another infrastructure that can´t help us to make Dash available at petrol stations and kiosk. Your point of view don´t make any sense if you need to introduce a new product of a new product category (and this is what Dash is). If you want to become the most popular product in your category you need to be everywhere and not to stay in a bubble.

Thanks again for your detailed response essra.

I didn't suggest to stay in a bubble, I said bitcoinbon needs to have a competitive advantage, since Dash is paying for it. I see no reason a subsidized product should be more expensive than a non-funded one. Makes sense?

But I guess I will find out only on my next holiday.

I'm in Europe and I use Kraken. It has a much larger Euro volume than bitcoin.de and supports SEPA transfers, which are free within Europe. Why would I use bitcoin.de or coinfinity? And Kraken already supports Dash.

Language barrier?

hi mastertube, I quote another comment to explain why I think it´s neccessary to be part of coinfinity:

------------

"Hi paul, together with some other people from dashnation I got a plan for Austria. First step is to increase the possibilities to buy Dash with Fiat. One way is coinfinity, another is bitcoinbon. Focusing on national companies as coinfinity, will will give us the oppurtunity to get in press in austria. In this way the whole economy is participating and will be open minded for Dash. I hope you get this idea?

The next step is to talk to the stores selling bitcoinbon and offer them the opportunity to attend Dash workshops. Because they are already selling Dash they may be more interested, than without. In this workshops we will convince them to accept Dash in their business. We need their trust, for this we need the press, for this we need companies from Austria.

Germany and switzerland will be next. this proposal is just about Fiat/Dash in Austria.

Thank you"

--------

I hope this helps?

uh.. it´s masternube. sorry for that my friend

Suppose Bitcoinbon maintains the minimum sales figure given, next year = $10M. Taking Dash's approx market cap and trading volume of Bitcoin (2%), we could "back-of-the-envelope" calculate new Dash "sales" of 0.02 x $10,000,000 = $200,000.

Ok, $200k in investment "return" might not seem like much, but this is the *minimum* to reasonably "expect" (also, factor in Coinfinity's sales, future potential growth, and future Dash marketshare growth) and at a cost of $30-40k USD, you can see this is a very clear "positive ROI" project with at least 400%+ ROI (and likely more, even if this lasts only one year, and it will likely continue in future years without additional payments), so this should be one of the easiest Yes votes this month.

I suggest this as a good way to look at proposals and evaluate how they benefit the ecosystem, no matter how large or small (weigh the "cost" against minimum "expected" return). Thanks!

You got my support, good luck.

Oh yeah, absolutely needed here. We will make it happen in Austria. Its very important to improve our efforts to get DASH rolled out to the german lands here in europe.

I like this idea. Do you have any ETA approximately? Q4 2017? Q1 2018? Or... ?

Hi Oz. Thanks for your reply. The integration will be finished in january, if this proposal passes.

Hi Jan-Heinrich,

If I search for german exchanges I consistently find bitcoin.de listed as best rated and 1st result. Do you know how Coinfinity compares in trading volume? Their site looks obviously much better, but are there other reasons you prefer them over other options?

hi paulkuit, coinfinity is an austrian platform, bitcoin.de is a german one, so we are speaking about two different countries. Coinfinity is not allowed to sell crypto to germans. Bitcoin.de is the only one who has the special licence. I´m already talking to them ;-)

If they can attend a much bigger market inclusive the Austrian it sounds like even more reason to focus on bitcoin.de. Now we only reach exclusively the Austrian market (what i understood) where as with bitcoin.de you would reach the whole of Europe. I hope they will be next in line then.

I'm in Europe and I use Kraken. It has a much larger Euro volume than bitcoin.de and supports SEPA transfers, which are free within Europe. Why would I use bitcoin.de or coinfinity? And Kraken already supports Dash.

As a European I agree, we don't need national exchanges. I assume language barrier is the reason, that's why I mentioned bitcoin.de.

Basicly you are right, but the austrians don´t really use bitcoin.de as far as I know and I think we should be part of both and even more.

Re-reading again and it starts to make less sense;
You wrote:
...."more possibilities to buy Dash with Fiat in Germany, Austria and Switzerland"...

Your answer "coinfinity doesn't attend foreign market due to missing license", doesn't align with the objective in your proposal.

You think Austrians don't use bitcoin.de but they do have access to it, I understand from your words.

As where in your business case it doesn't work both ways. I would focus on the big fish.

Bitcoin.de has a german interface and attends all of Europe, including all the places you mention in your proposal.

Hi paul, together with some other people from dashnation I got a plan for Austria. First step is to increase the possibilities to buy Dash with Fiat. One way is coinfinity, another is bitcoinbon. Focusing on national companies as coinfinity, will will give us the oppurtunity to get in press in austria. In this way the whole economy is participating and will be open minded for Dash. I hope you get this idea?

The next step is to talk to the stores selling bitcoinbon and offer them the opportunity to attend Dash workshops. Because they are already selling Dash they may be more interested, than without. In this workshops we will convince them to accept Dash in their business. We need their trust, for this we need the press, for this we need companies from Austria.

Germany and switzerland will be next. this proposal is just about Fiat/Dash in Austria.

Thank you

I am sorry to be so repetitive, but that's a whole different objective than stated in the proposal, agree?

"more possibilities to buy Dash with Fiat in Germany, Austria and Switzerland", But you will only actually reach Austria.

Just be clear on the objectives so we know what to expect, please.

Hello from Munich (very close to Austria). I am actually very glad that Austrians show us Germans how to move forward and it is about the German speaking ecosystem. Do you think we ignore what Austrians do? Germans constantly get the news how cool Austria is for Cryptos. and how annoying the Germans laws are. Imho it is very short-sighted to separate those countries like that. Essra is a German native speaker and his audience is D-A-CH and it does not matter that in this case his efforts are technically directed at A specifically, because it is excellent news in German.

ok. sorry for this. it wasn´t my goal to mislead you

High Essra,
With your statement
"What´s in for Dash?"
you create great expectations , but the only information that you deliver (about the Dash part of it) are these two external links
- "Infosection about Dash"(?) on https://www.bitcoinbon.at/
- "Infosection about Dash" (?) on https://coinfinity.co/start-en/

I could NOT FIND ANY MENTIONING OF DASH on these sites AT ALL. Perhaps you could show me where i can find them there- and post those precise links here on your proposal site.
If not - it's just "great" expectations for a proposal you want over 40000 $ for.
Thanks

ASH you really need to pay attention to the actual proposal. Your questions made no sense. The proposal is about inserting DASH, why would they advertise something they don't currently have?

hi ash, you are totally right. there are no infosections about Dash on these websites at the moment, because Dash isn´t integratet yet. Both websites will add these sections, when Dash is part of their service. Everything else would not make much sense. I hope you agree and that this comment helps to understand.

It would be nice to know what does mean "Bitcoinbon has a turnover of XX Million € in this year (they don´t want to tell me the exact number,......."
If they are interested in our money they should be interested in transparency ..................and you too

Hi ash, I understand your approach, but I also understand, that they don´t want to share their numbers with the public. And yes, of course they are interested in the money, but on the other hand I´m really interestet in an integration and I think you should be too.

I'm impressed by the amount of projects you can can deliver. Keep them comming. Voting yes

Thank you beru. I quit my job and only work for Dash now, that´s why I need to keep them coming ;-)

I'm so glad you added the P.S. I had no clue you are on the team. People often forget to introduce themselves.

This proposal was submitted well after the price bump from 340~ to 420~. Why was this not changed because now you will be receiving an extra 25+ Dash that is not needed. What will you do with the extra Dash that totals to about $9,000 worth?

It's look like you got confused. € not $

At the moment of writing the dash/eur chart show 362, higher than 340 but far from 420

Oh your right my bad lol