Proposal “REDUCE_PROPOSAL_FEES_TO_1_DASH“ (Closed)Back

Title:Reduce proposal fees from 5 DASH to 1 DASH
Owner:Technologov
One-time payment: 10 DASH (1971 USD)
Completed payments: no payments occurred yet (1 month remaining)
Payment start/end: 2017-04-20 / 2017-05-20 (added on 2017-04-15)
Final voting deadline: in passed
Votes: 790 Yes / 719 No / 13 Abstain

Proposal description

Dear Dash Nation !

Sudden spike of Dash-to-U.S.Dollar prices, put many new proposals out of reach for small projects.
With regard to the recent maximum USD price of Dash at $120, We think the proposal fee should be reduced to 1.0 Dash.
Without this change, We feel that opportunities will be missed.
This is because a high proposal cost will discourage submitting of anything but "guaranteed" proposals.
The 5 Dash fee was introduced primarily to prevent spam. But it became a wall, where new proposals cannot even be proposed.

====

This is my second attempt to lower prices of DASH proposals to 1.0 DASH, after my previous attempt to lower the price to 0.1 DASH was squarely rejected by the majority of Masternodes.
Dash Masternodes basically said, that they don't want to micro-manage, and rejected my previous offer of reducing fee to 0.1 DASH.
(this would have put Masternode owners to become the baby-sitters of DASH. I don't mind becoming one, and take on more responsibility, but others don't want it. Okay,)

Medium-sized projects ($1000-$5000) really don't need to pay $500 dollar fee on our proposals.
This proposal will let Medium-sized proposals to get decentralized funding.
Smaller projects are priced out of the network, even with 1.0 DASH fee. (especially what-if future price spike to $1000/DASH ?)

Smaller projects (under $999 worth) will be handled in another way, to be determined in the future. Either via some kind of non-profit center. 
Or by developing 2nd tier voting for small projects, where only some people will vote, rather than all Masternode Owners.
Small projects in 2017 is mostly about various Dash meetings in Australia/ U.S/ E.U/ Ukraine, you-name-it. Plus academic works.

-Technologov

Show full description ...

Discussion: Should we fund this proposal?

Submit comment
 
-1 point,2 months ago
I think the biggest problem is here that this fee is not really a big issue right now.
We have bigger fish to fry, and we should focus on that. Any good proposols can still make there way in. But for now we should also make sure we are not doing 1000 small things, its better to focus on the big things first such as, expanding the DASH team with valuable members, the alt36 deal. DASH evolution.

Further more this solution should not be silly thing to say hey let's increase it and than a couple of months later hey lets decrease it. I think the best way to do this is to build something into the code that will make this problem go away much easier

Just of the top of my head, I am thinking that this could be build into the code, where Masternodes can vote to increase or to decrease the amount needed for proposols, similiar to how BIP100 works. But such a solution takes time to build in. And if fact wants in gets build in there is actually no need to ask this question anymore as the network does it via the consensuses off master-node voting itself. This is how DECRED works on very implementation, I believe that DASH should at-least take that approach for some topics.

They probably would be called Masternode-sporks or something.
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0 points,3 months ago
I agree with reducing the cost to 1Dash. I would like to submit a proposal but, the cost was prohibitive for the small event I had planned just introduce DASH in my area. I would like to have DASH paraphernalia as give aways at the event but at the time, DASH was at $100 usd. I believe there should indeed be "skin in the game" to play but, many good ideas and proposals could be lost to high fees. I doubt if spammers will invest just to flood the network because that would mean they making DASH more valuable by paying to submit proposals (fake). Just a thought.
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1 point,3 months ago
I, for one, am happy to see that Dash governance can be so equally divided. It makes a case for actual decentralization. I would vote yes to reimburse Technologov for bringing these interesting proposals to light. Thank you.
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0 points,3 months ago
Only slightly more YES votes than NO votes. What amount would win approval? 5 Dash I presume?
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-1 point,3 months ago
Sorry if it was mentioned before:

Why not make 2 proposal fees?
-5 dash if i am certain, that my proposal is good and I want to draw more attention to it.
-1 dash to the rest.
With filter option if you don't like to see 1 dash (spam?) proposals.

What say You?
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2 points,3 months ago
By voting "No" you are going to weaken Dash as governance proposals will be submitted later or not at all due to fear of loss of proposal fee.

As for getting higher quality proposals if the fee is high, this is just plain wrong. A lot of very important changes are made in this world by ideas and suggestions made by people with limited means.

Please reconsider your vote.
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2 points,3 months ago
No one who is confident they can provide value should worry they will get shut down. We already fund almost everyone who makes a proposal
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3 points,3 months ago
Not to mention if someone were to actually come forward with a project plan that even has a remote chance of getting 10% votes, they would have no problem either raising the required amount for the fee, or otherwise get funding by another means (like through dashforce). If neither of these things are possible then what reason is there to think that the proposal would pass?
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5 points,3 months ago
Please comment here if you currently do not have 5 Dash to make a proposal with. Point proven (;
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0 points,3 months ago
As Dash grows, the 5 Dash proposal cost is an excellent way to weed out weak proposals.
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0 points,3 months ago
You will weed out the new dash generation, and the poor.
You will remain the greedy generation of 2014-2016 the spies and the stupids.
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1 point,3 months ago
He is wrong, but you wrong also. Please don't act like a kid. Proposal cost should be affordable for people if we want many interesting proposals. And for sure we want, right?
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-1 point,3 months ago
Agreed! There are no needs to have weak small proposals. Google and Amazon don't do business with the average joe, they only go for big clients. As we grow we move to bigger and better things
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0 points,3 months ago
It is not about weak small proposals!!!! It is about small governance questions!!!

You have to vote your laws, your refferendums. The laws require small questions to be voted, and those questions should be cheap, in order to have many questions and thus more accurate laws.
If you have no laws, then you have no governance.
If you have inaccurate laws, then you have bad governance.
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1 point,3 months ago
I'm surprised by the lack of support for this proposal. I think the currently high fee is an unnecessary roadblock for cheap initiatives that would help the community.

If spam proposals turn out to be a problem we can always bump the fee again, or find some other way of managing the problem. I'd urge the no-voters to reconsider.
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-6 points,3 months ago
The paid spies and the stupids never reconsider.
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0 points,3 months ago
Actually surprised there are so many no votes. People say "just do pre proposals" if you are scared to lose your money. Well judging by this last guys proposal (reducing fee to .1 dash) and the comments, this new proposal would have seemed to passed easily. Apparently that is not the case and he will possibly be out of around $800 usd. The network wasn't spammed endlessly when the proposal cost was around $50 usd. I was thinking about doing a proposal to do FB ads etc, not for my own profit but just to break even to help Dash, but I'm not putting up that much money just to possibly lose it. There is alot of money not being used because the fee is so high and it will only get higher.
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-3 points,3 months ago
The "just do the pre proposals" in a place where not all masternodes exist (the forum) is part of the structured methodology of the spies. They want to scatter the information that the masternode electorate receive in several irrelevant places, and thus confuse the electorate. That way, they can control the governance system, and vote against any proposal that may turn the governance of Dash effective.

The spies are paid in order to destroy the governance system of Dash. Their employers trumble with fear at the possiblity a cryptocurrency to be able to be governed succesfully.

And the easiest way to destroy a governance system is to make the governance question too expensive.
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0 points,3 months ago
1 Dash is fine to prevent spam, which was the originally intended purpose of the fee. I think masternode owners have an obligation to read every proposal that makes it here and vote. By the same token, proposal owners need to gauge interest using the pre-proposal discussion area at dash.org/forum or in the #proposals channel in slack.
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0 points,3 months ago
I don't have a masternode to vote but would have vote for it. Very good idea.
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1 point,3 months ago
Why is this proposal not passing? Who the heck are these 444 MasterNode no votes and why dont they have anything to say?
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0 points,2 months ago
They are the few Dash initiators who hold a disproportionate amount of Dash in hundreds of Masternodes. They can easily stop any proposal.
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-1 point,3 months ago
You are confused.
The masternodes no votes are 356
The masternodes yes votes are 443.
http://dashvotetracker.com/history.html?ProposalID=250
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-4 points,3 months ago
The yes votes turned now to 444.
The spies are trolling your obvious agitation when you counted erroneously, and they are having fun of your honest concern about the future of the dash governance..
They are having fun, and think they control the game.
But they are wrong.
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-5 points,3 months ago
As for you question "who are they" the answer is obvious
They are those who want the governance system of DASH to fail.
The spies, and the stupids.
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0 points,3 months ago
I really want the core team to give a statement of their plans regarding this but until they do, I think this is going in the right direction. Voting Yes.
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0 points,3 months ago
I agree that the Dash community needs a scalable solution for small projects, so this proposal must be funded.
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-2 points,3 months ago
https://www.dashcentral.org/p/Reduce_proposal_fees_to_dot1_DASH

>Dont do it Technologov!
>Those stupids dont deserve for you to spend another 5 Dash.
>Let all those stupids who voted NO, to submit a proposal themselves and >spend their own Dash.

Technologov,

As long as this proposal seems to be rejected by the stupids (and the spies), I hope the next time you will take my advice more seriously.
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-1 point,3 months ago
This initiative is to make the governance questions cheap, in order for the masternodes to be able to govern their DASH coin. But some stupids, and some spies, dont want that. They want to keep the governance questions expensive, to prevent masternodes from governing.

Just count how many persons commented positively this proposal in the dashcentral. There is only one or two persons who argue against this proposal and their arguments are pure FUD. But there are 346 masternodes who vote against this usefull initiative for cheap governance questions!!! They vote against the cheap governance initiative, but they dont argue against it, so obviously most of them are not individual persons, but spies.

The spies are spreading FUD , claiming (and indirectly threaten) that millions of spam proposals will occur in case this proposal passes. Spies have been instructed by their employers to destroy the DASH governance system, at all costs. And the easiest way to destroy the governance system of DASH is to make the governance questions too expensive. This is one of the reasons why DASH's dollar price increases. The employers of the spies tremble with fear when they realize that a cryptocoin may occur that will have effective governance, so they want to control it and intercept it. So they buy DASH in order to gain voting rights and vote against any proposal is towards an effective governance.

The dash community should find a way in order to spot all the masternode operators who are spies (or stupid), identify them with a number or with a nickname, spot their voting patterns and take precautions against them. But on the other hand in the name of your darkcoin tradition you should protect the spy's and stupid's privacy and do not expose their real names (and the names of the people who fund them in order to destroy DASH's governance).

The dash community should implement ASAP a proof of individuality and pseudonym parties.

http://proofofindividuality.online/
www.brynosaurus.com/log/2007/0327-PseudonymParties.pdf
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2 points,3 months ago
Oh gosh, I know it's 420 but I feel like your smoking something stronger then the green haha!
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1 point,3 months ago
Just a comment about your "smaller projects under $999", I dont know if you have seem my Funded Budget Holders pre-proposal. The full debate is here https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/funded-budget-holders.13923/ It had some support, but perhaps people thought it was something for the future.
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1 point,3 months ago
Self adjusting fee may be even better, but it takes some brain to figure it out.

My general idea :
The ideal amount of proposals is something that Masternode operators can read and vote on. If we will have too many proposals with under 10% vote (under 400 Masternodes vote), it means that the fee is too cheap, needs to be slightly increased. On the other hand, If we have too much budget, unallocated and waiting, like now, it means that our proposal fee is too expensive. Clearly 5 DASH is way too expensive.

We need to have several competing proposals for every DASH coin we have available in the budget.
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1 point,3 months ago
good idea - maybe the proposal fee should be self adjusting according to the unused budget in 10% steps - eg. if there is 30% unused budget the fee should go down by 10% in the next round and if there is less than 10% unused budget the fee goes up by 10%

that mean three number are needed - lower bound (70%), upper bound (90%) and fee change amount (10%)
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1 point,3 months ago
Is there anything to stop someone from buying a masternode, flooding this forum with spam for a month, then selling it again? Total cost, probably free or may make a profit. Seems a much easier way to spam us than with proposals.
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0 points,3 months ago
I get your idea but we need to protect ourselves from any kind of attack, if it's flooded with someone who wants to see us fail then we very well could be. With flooding it we won't use the proposals at all! It will just sit there because there's just to many. I feel like there will be a lot of people asking for 3-5 Dash easily like it's really not worth us to go through things like that
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1 point,3 months ago
You get my yes votes as I stated on the previous proposal. Thanks for heeding the community advice and changing this.

By the end of 2017 just 1 Dash will probably be costly enough to keep foolish, scamming, and spam proposals at bay. We must protect the treasury at all costs, but not set the barrier to entry. Everyone can and should have an equal feasible chance. No matter their current financial situation.
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3 points,3 months ago
Your thinking in the future but in reality you should be thinking right now. It would cost someone $7,000 dollars to spam the proposals with 100 proposals. Think of it like you own a million dollars in bitcoin and don't want us to succeed, that's an easy target then. Just you all wait you'll realize this was a terrible idea
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0 points,3 months ago
Proposal cost used to be 50 dollars and less yet dash was fine. Not everyone is in this for profit and they just want to help the coin, but asking someone to put up 400 usd or more that they could lose is dumb.
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1 point,3 months ago
I see your cause for concern @Mizzymax and I will update my statement for something with the future in mind.

By the time Evolution comes out the price of Dash will most likely be much higher. When this happens and we see larger scale adoption, a rapid price rise, then I would like to see the 1 Dash proposal fee.
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2 points,3 months ago
My point is that's in the future. This is the present. You can assume all you want but in reality you will never know.
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2 points,3 months ago
Yes this is why I stated "then I would like to see the 1 Dash proposal fee."

I can wait, but in the mean time, constructive discourse.
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-1 point,3 months ago
If someone wants to spam 7000 that's good for dash creates a bit of deflation.
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-1 point,3 months ago
Lol, if somebody wants to spend $7000 to spam us with 100 proposals then I say go for it... They will be easy enough to skip since they will all have to be cookie cutter. Nobody's going to spend that kind of time to make 100 unique proposals. This argument is kind of funny...
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0 points,3 months ago
If you are a huge investor in other currencies they would do anything to slow us down. Even making 30 legit looking proposals that are just spam can cause us to slow down the growth and not focus on what we need to focus on. I think you'll see what I'm talking about, il have no doubt in my mind it will happen. And they could in turn possibly get money back if voted yes for because masternodes will only be scimming the proposals rather then looking at the details
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0 points,3 months ago
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I have a hard time believing somebody's going to spend $1000's of dollars just to inconvenience us... and if they do, there's no chance they would continue to do it long term. There are better ways to attack us I think. Also for anybody that does this, they would be buying Dash on the open market, increasing it's value just to burn it. I think most of us would welcome that. I don't buy these gloom and doom scenarios, where this will slow us down or cause us to fail in any way. Like I said, at worst it would be an inconvenience and I'm sure we could come up with ideas that would help resolve any issue like this... For instance, a button next to each proposal that said "Mark this Proposal as Spam", and hide it for the user or tie an algorithm to it so that it would be hidden from others if conditions are met.
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2 points,3 months ago
If you have millions of dollars invested in a competing currency, ten thousand dollars isn't really a big deal.
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2 points,3 months ago
Yes! And also with 10 legitment looking proposals all asking for 15-20 Dash, all the person needs is one for the con artist to take money from us who is actually not going to do anything. The current system is based on the system of built up trust. This will cause us to just throw money at useless things that aren't needed. Ugh lol I feel there's no hope reversing this at this point :/
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2 points,3 months ago
Or if there happens to be spam just increase it back to 5 Dash (: it's kind of hard to believe that someone can't come up with 400 bucks to make $1000+... but you'll all see what il be talking about lol il be over here saying I told you so
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1 point,3 months ago
not set the barrier to entry too high.*
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0 points,3 months ago
Voting yes. I agree that we need a more scalable solution for small projects, but i still think this should go ahead. We need to help more people do good things for dash.
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0 points,3 months ago
12 yes : 1 no comments --- how does it come that the votes are so different
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3 points,3 months ago
My reasons for opposing this are posted to the forum thread:

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/pre-proposal-dash-proposal-fee-lowered-to-1-0-dash.14262/
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0 points,3 months ago
voted yes on this as well. hopefully we get better and higher quality proposals.
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3 points,3 months ago
Voting yes. If it means I have more proposals to analyse that's a good problem to have.
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2 points,3 months ago
Voting "yes". Not all proposals have a profit motive, and there is a limit to how much an average person is willing to spend in time and money to act altruistically.

As I briefly mentioned in the previous proposal, a preferred way to set the fee would be to have a weighted average signaled by the masternodes. Default for this change could be 1 Dash. Making my "yes" vote consistent. :)
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1 point,3 months ago
I will vote yes on this one. The more proposals we get, the more opportunities we have to better our community and the more INCLUSIVE Dash is for new users.
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0 points,3 months ago
Voting Yes, I would urge people to do the same.
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0 points,3 months ago
Voting yes
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-1 point,3 months ago
clear 'yes'
reason is that medium size projects are the seeds of a economy
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-1 point,3 months ago
Yes. One dash will still keep out the spam and fluff and attack proposals. We are not overwhelmed with proposals and I boldly predict we will get more proposals, but not flooded. If needed we can make adjustments down the road if the number of proposals become a burden. In that event, perhaps we expand the Dash Force for anything under $2,000.
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1 point,3 months ago
I do hope people vote yes for this
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-1 point,3 months ago
I did. Seems reasonable to me.
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0 points,3 months ago
Lots of small projects has a better network effect. There's no reason to have any proposal not go through due to cost. The purpose of the fee was spam control and 1 dash is plenty to stop spam.
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0 points,3 months ago
No! Dash proposals should not be dependent on how much it cost to make one. Lowering the price of proposals only lower the quality because people arnt risking as much for a huge reward. if someone really wanted to make a proposal they would find a way to get 400 bucks to make one. This is definitely not a problem in my book and you will be making a problem. Lowering the fees by 5x will make 5x the amount of proposals making about 35 or so. No one will want to spend their time on all of those to vote.... don't fix something that's not broke!! Please I don't see anyone saying they can't help out the community because it cost to much
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0 points,3 months ago
1 DASH will price out a lot of small projects. 5 DASH will price out a lot of medium size projects. (especially with future-DASH price of $1000)
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2 points,3 months ago
Well Dash proposals arnt at 1000 dollars right now. And you can still do a small project for us but I think anyone making a dash proposal should be in turn a dash holder. If someone doesn't have 5 Dash, they are not into Dash simply put
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2 points,3 months ago
There is a balance to be struck here. Considering that one dash is currently in dollar terms much higher that 5 Dash was valued in dollars at the time the anti spam measure was introduced, then the effect is that a one Dash fee is still a robust anti spam measure.

I don't think spammers will be lining up to waste 75 or one hundred bucks on a silly proposal.

5 Dash is too high a price for the 'little guy' and if Dash is a currency for the people, and our spokespeople (like Amanda) promote the "anyone can put in a proposal" idea, then please let's make this more easily attainable.

Even if there are more proposals, I don't think any of them will be spurious. After all, who wants to waste their own time and $75 bucks (current Dash price) of their own money?

I'm voting YES
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1 point,3 months ago
Because for 70 bucks you could get $5000 possibly by lack of research on your proposal. The more proposals the more problems
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