Proposal “Divert-Incubator-Funds-to-DCG“ (Closed)Back

Title:Divert Incubator Funds to DCG
Owner:lysergic
One-time payment: 1150 DASH (30575 USD)
Completed payments: no payments occurred yet (1 month remaining)
Payment start/end: 2023-07-13 / 2023-08-22 (added on 2023-07-13)
Final voting deadline: in passed
Votes: 375 Yes / 181 No / 63 Abstain

Proposal description

This proposal is for 1150 Dash (800+200+150) to be paid to DCG's proposal address https://chainz.cryptoid.info/dash/address.dws?7mUyau75ATy1c6LoZeG3D57jKBkR4iHJkE.htm instead of to the Incubator.  Vote YES on this proposal if you think it is more valuable to continue funding core development, mobile wallet updates and continued work on Evolution. Down vote all three corresponding Incubator proposals to free up this Dash.

DCG has no more than 2 month in reserves at these prices before they have to fire approximately 50% of the staff.  There is no more slack in DCG, so the staff to be sent home are devs and losing any one of them is going to massively impact this project.  Issues we face if we lose staff are but not limited to, further delays in launching Evo, Mobile wallets falling into disrepair, core protocol updates taking longer, eg v20 and possible inability to fix production issues should they arise in the future.  We cannot risk any of these things happening.  Without core first maintaining and updating the critical aspects of the network, protocol, mobile and evo, there is no point in funding an incubator to build on top of this network.  We need to start from the ground up and make sure we have a solid foundation.  I am very much in favour of funding the Incubator during times of plenty, but now that we are in a nuclear winter, I would like to see funding paused for them and diverted to DCG until such time as conditions improve, likely in Q1 2023.  DCG's supplemental will not overlap with the Incubator's ask because they prefer to not get other DFOs and thus MNOs offside, however, we can still make that decision ourselves and they will gladly use the extra Dash to keep going just a little bit longer.

If you also believe it makes more sense to fund DCG and keep the network going, then vote YES on this proposal and NO on all three incubator proposals.  If you are the sort of MNO that eats the icing off the cake and throws out the rest, then do the opposite and let's see the Incubator build on an unsupported network without a core team.  Finally, the Incubator have over 3000 Dash, enough for them to wind down and go on a break while they wait for the markets improve and resume operations.

Thank you for your consideration.

- This proposal was generated using https://mnowatch.org/proposal-generator/ check it out today!

Show full description ...

Discussion: Should we fund this proposal?

Submit comment
 
1 point,1 month ago
I think DCG needs an overhaul on several fronts. Today there are issues with governance , trust and accountability, communication and collaboration with incubator and community and so on.
I personally (i know others also agree) think that payout should be tied to deliveries moving forward, much like how incubators work. Getting a "salary" and not having to commit to any delivery, date or answer to anyone is a big no go for me.
We seem to think we are very decentralized but the development team is very centralized. So either we need to start with personal accountability and building trust by actually doing what we say we will do (as if you would work in a company).
I have asked so many times for a breakdown of the structure of DCG with roles and responsibility + salary (no names needed).
I still don't know who is responsible for what! Maybe a few handful people know but why are we not transparent? Are we not suppose to be open and "decentralized"?
Why is the whole DCG in one place even (maybe i'm wrong)?
I have to many reasons to vote NO here.

Will defunding the DCG hurt Dash short term? for sure, but change tends to be like that. For any meaningful change to happen we need a big shakeout and after sooooo many years of promises we still don't have a firm date for EVO which speaks volumes about why we need a big change!
Plus no privacy in mobile app division for years either. Yet another good example of how inefficient we are!

ps. i have great respect to the developers and i have no clue what is going on behind closed doors and who decides on what. So i'm not pointing finer at anyone in particular. There might be multiple reasons we are inefficient (as i see it) and in order to address that and get back to a good way of working we need to open up and start talking with each other and put all the work on the table!
Only then we can start prioritizing, talking about how long every single work takes and create a good roadmap. Working in silos and in the dark is not a good way of doing things.

Sorry for the long rant but i 'm passionate about this project and i want it to succeed in the long run!
Reply
0 points,1 month ago
Thanks for your comment, this proposal is now expired and won't be included for funding this cycle, you can always check on https://mnowatch.org/leaderboard/ for the wilted tulip to know if a proposal is not valid for funding in that cycle.

> I think DCG needs an overhaul on several fronts. Today there are issues with governance , trust and accountability, communication and collaboration with incubator and community and so on.

I agree, the org is currently a sordid shit-show.

> payout should be tied to deliveries moving forward, much like how incubators work.

Not quite how incubator works, which is even more inefficient and gets much less done, but rather have the devs themselves approach the DAO for direct funding.

> We seem to think we are very decentralized but the development team is very centralized.

Like all projects and even worse is some project in particular, try doing a PR to Bitcoin Core and see how it goes, ever wondered why there are so many shitcoins? Try the PR. Now try PR on Dash Core, big difference. We are not nearly as centralised as you say, but it's easy to say it because DCG is a LLC in Delaware.

> I have asked so many times for a breakdown of the structure of DCG with roles and responsibility + salary (no names needed).

The reason this is not provided specifically is because legally they cannot even provide everybody's salary and I notice you are not using your real name, should these people use real name and tell the world their salary, where do you see that? Which publicly listed company on the NYSE does that? Another point is since the teams are 1-2 people in size they can't give even per team, because it is so doxxic. Finally, if it was public information, the devs would leave because scam projects can afford to pay them much more and we cannot, so there is no upside in this whatsoever. In fact we've had devs pinched from DCG and move to scams like crypto.com and others.

> Why is the whole DCG in one place even (maybe i'm wrong)?

Why would you think this? They are spread across several counties.

> For any meaningful change to happen we need a big shakeout

We do, but de-funding them? You know where that leads, they leave, the project is abandoned, where is the DCG CEO? Where is the Dash News Room? Where are the Germans, the Thais and so on, you think there is someone that can't wait to take over and be yelled at by people like you? Nope! Be careful with this approach.

> ps. i have great respect to the developers and i have no clue what is going on behind closed doors and who decides on what.

Have you approached anyone in DCG to make requests, investigate how things work and submit a PR? Have you tried a decision proposal, have you tried anything at all to this end. First try it then give constructive feedback.
Reply
1 point,1 month ago
I never said devs need to reveal their real names did i? Plus i have had Real live meeting with Rion so i don't mind being public if and when needed.

I might be wrong on the location but it seems we are unable to gather and do any real work. I read people had a hard time traveling and whatnot.
If people are on a salary and work demands travel and we plan i don't see this being impossible. However it seems to be the case right now.
I even think we could do this remotely if we allocate a week for JUST this work without any disturbance.

I have been a product owner, product manager and so on for many many years and what i ask for is transparency, an open backlog, work to be estimated, team members to take accountability and deliver work on time. We should learn, adapt using retro and try our best to keep deadlines. all the things DCG tries to avoid.
I know it will hurt when/if people leave. But what other choice is there? after several years the work is still ongoing with EVO and no one is willing to even share what's left!?!?
And yes i have tried many times in Discord to start the discussion and ask people if they want to get involved, meet etc.
I saw that Rion is doing some work now in that front and i have offered multiple times my own help if anyone think i can contribute!

I have not made a PR since i don't think that will solve the underlaying issue with governance and how we work....for that we need to meet and work atleast a week and agree on fundamentals. Why do we even exist? What is Dash? How do we work and collaborate with each other (between teams and even community), how do we keep each other accountable?
How is payment handled vs delivery?
Many questions to tackle. None of these are solved by a PR i think.

I don't think we need a CEO but we sure as H need a model and understanding who does what. Maybe teamleads or even CTO roles need to be there.
I can help with what i can if needed too.
Reply
4 points,2 months ago
It's great to see that Sam & Rion have discussed and figured a way forward; ultimately governance is monthly and if we need to re-address this in the near future (hopefully not!), either during or at the end of this quarter, we can. I will be voting yes on Rion's proposal and the new DCG supplemental ask. Month to month we need to re-evaluate the ongoing situation and address it as necessary but right now this seems the best outcome.

I appreciate the necessity of this proposal to raise this issue, and going forwards I will maintain a better picture of DCGs finances and ensure that is shared with the network so we can make educated decisions. With regards to my budget; it's likely I will be out of funds at the end of the quarter. If at that point my incubator operations have to go on hiatus that is fine, I will focus on ensuring my projects are ready to be paused at this point. This will be especially important for the platform extension & dapp library so that subject to the launch of platform devs have a proper user onboarding flow and toolset to build against. Although I do want to make it clear that this will not be a production ready wallet / library at that point.
Reply
0 points,2 months ago
Thanks man! Great work on the Maya front too, I can't wait to try it in a few days.
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
A better idea would be for DCG to float separate Supplementals for allocated and unallocated funds and let the voters decide.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
It makes no sense that DCG would honor other unallocated funding if they need funding that bad, this is on DCG to decide.
Reply
4 points,2 months ago
Incubator is also important (not without platform release though) so I really need to know if spectaprod and Rion will be OK? I appreciate Ash saying he'll be OK.
Reply
-2 points,2 months ago
They'll be more OK than if we have to start laying off core team members, which is where we're heading. So, please support this proposal with your YES vote and vote NO on the three incubator proposals.
Reply
10 points,2 months ago
Based on the latest DCG estimations it seems they would run out of reserve funds for November with their existing ask and current Dash prices. If they take the entire superblock they would run out for January 2024. I have modelled this here: https://i.imgur.com/y7Q6txZ.png

I have asked for accurate figures so I can forecast this better, either way its quite clear that a crisis plan needs to be in place (even if that plan is as basic as to immediately downsize as necessary come February and who gets cut).

I do have a healthy reserve which I believe I can deliver from, it's my belief that we need to launch platform with an equivalent metamask for Dash and a library for dapp developers. If we force users to input a mnemonic or launch with only DashPay on mobile then any launch will fall flat on its face. However I think I can deliver this from my reserves. I can't speak for the other Strategists but for myself my work will continue regardless of outcome.

There are some potential issues from nearly early all funding going to DCG that I'm not going to into here. I would be more than happy to fund some DCG developers with the incubator framework, but it maybe that isn't a realistic option right now either. Either way we're all just servants of the network, I'll think over this weekend if there is any compromise or if this is ultimately the best solution.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
Thank you for that
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
Thanks for your comment, Ash.
Besides the weak price of Dash, the run rate of DCG is too high and seems to be out of control.
Not claiming everyone on DCG´s wagelist isn´t worth their pay, those few who contribute the most might even be underpaid for their efforts, some may be fairly paid, while many others are likely leeching off of them.
A majority of DCG staff is probably overpaid, and by a lot, when objectively comparing their salaries with their regular contributions.
Unfortunately all MNO who are not DCG-insiders do not have a clear picture, even though we deserve to have a crystal-clear picture.
We not only have the right, but the duty to have a much clearer picture about DCG spending.
There ought to be much more transparency and real accountability regarding DCG spending.
All DCG spending needs to be reasonable and justified.

A couple of key individuals deciding every spending-related expenditure and running the show like unelected dictators who aren´t accountable to anyone, is no viable long-term solution.
It is long overdue for the MNO network to demand more control, but at least more oversight to begin with.

Treating and guarding compensations, bonuses (if any), other expenses and general spending habits like state-secrets and handling them with the utmost discretion and secrecy must no longer be tolerated by the MNO.
Paternalising the MNO network and treating the MNO like little children unable to make up their own minds, such attitude has to be cut out like the cancer it is.

And there is no doubt, that a large portion of the MNO network would prefer to see more positions within DCG taken and filled by MNOs who have both the experience and competence, rather than occupied by paid employees who never really care about Dash, but only care about their salary never stopping.

Oh, and lets not even pretend the Trust Protectors will oversee DCG on our behalf and alert us if needed.
They are 'elected' with 5% of the votes at most, the whole Trust Protector election is a pathetic charade.
Heck, we don´t even know for sure, whether all Trust Protectors combined own even 3,000 Dash.
Every Trust Protector candidate should be asked for voluntary disclosure of his Dash holdings.
TP candidates who refuse to disclose, we would at least know they probably don´t own a single Dash coin.
There goes the allegiance we can expect from people who aren´t invested in Dash.
And those are the kinda people who are running the project and making decisions for us.
Because we allowed this all to happen.
No wonder the low price of Dash, we probably deserve it all !!!!

Too many shitty decisions have been made in the past, and the current price of Dash reflects it very well.
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
What makes you think contributors are overpaid? From everything I've seen it would appear we are paying extremely talented people well below what they could make working on other projects.
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
Most likely nowhere else they could possibly ever obtain as much overpay as they get from us, or they would already be gone, and without thinking twice !!
That´s how reality works.
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
Well, the fact that they obviously are and by a lot actually.
What makes you believe that the entire DCG staffs annual contributions and efforts are worth even close to $2.4M ?
That´s their current run rate, but better call it BURN rate.
To really believe whatever they all "contribute" combined is worth anything remotely like that amount, is beyond delusional.
The current price of Dash and the condition this project is in right now tells us otherwise.
And its only going downhill from where we are.
But keep closing your eyes and sleep well, good night.
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
"A majority of DCG staff is probably overpaid" -> I know it's easy to speculate this, but in the end it's just baseless speculation.

The average contributor is underpaid, it's not really in DCG management interest to shout this out, but at this point I think a lot of people in DCG know they are underpaid, so me saying it here won't get them to quit if they haven't yet. We often lose developers as they are being offered between 20 and 70% more to work on other projects. This is the #1 way we lose developers that we don't let go.

If you want to know what every single person makes... well that just won't happen, as as far as I'm aware public disclosure of such information would be illegal, well at least in Europe. You can instead take the amount of money we spend, and divide it by the amount of people we have.

Me and other management receive less money now then we did a year ago. I wouldn't even be surprised if I were the least paid CTO in any top 100 coin.

As for trust protectors, sure they can come in, see that there's no shenanigans and that people are working quite hard, and then what? They get accused by community members like yourself of not doing their role. One of the reasons why we can't find people who want to be a trust protector anymore.

Complaining is easy, doing is hard. A lot of people chose to go the easy route.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
Safeguarding this project from total collapse is obviously way too difficult for the individuals in charge, and totally over their heads.

Gimme a break.
$20M spent on DCG staff over the last 5-6 years and achieved what exactly?
You guys have managed to ruin this project, and its more rotten than ever before.
A couple of the Devs are undoubtedly worth their pay, most others are likely leeching off.
But their technical experience and capability doesn´t automatically make the Devs contributions worth much or anything at all, if they are instructed and ordered to code all the wrong and shitty things.

Who the hell cares about Europe and their crappy laws?
The world is bigger than Europe.
And why would we stipulate any of the contracts under european laws?

Then we have Trust Protector elections, with TP candidates which don´t own a single Dash coin.
No voluntary (verified) disclosure of TP candidates holdings, so we at least know who is invested and who is (likely) not.
What could even be the motivation of people who don´t own a single Dash coin to run as TP candidates?
Probably the mental illness they suffer from? Well, the world is full of that kinda people and we seem to attract them with open arms.
Or perhaps because otherwise their life is too boring, there really is no other reason.
They should buy themselves a dog or go fishing instead of running as TP candidates.
Why would anybody in their right mind, want to get involved with something he doesn´t care about, and waste his time on it?
And why would we want somebody who has no incentive in the success of Dash, even see on the ballott?
Such are the people we should vote for, when they have no incentive to care or give a shit about Dash.
Who is the genius who invented all this crap?

quote:
"well that just won't happen"
Samuel, your arrogance is unbearable.
This decision is NOT YOURS to take, but this decision belongs to the ENTIRETY OF THE MNO to rule on,
and sooner or later the MNO will decide whether they will blindly trust DCG´s spending for all the future as they did in the past (by now we know the outcome of it), or if they want to see clear figures of how well you guys waste our funds on overpaid employees who only care about Dash insomuch as their salary never stops.

If i understood you correctly, in case the MNO network will ever order FULL DISCLOSURE of all spending, contracts and expenditures, it is your intention to disobey the MNO network under such circumstances, right?
Good to know your stance on this. And good for us MNO to take notice of it.
I am glad you made your position clear on this matter, that you will refuse to comply with the will of the MNO network, in case the MNO network would ever dare to vote in favor of FULL DISCLOSURE, even though this must not be a public disclosure at all, but at least a disclosure towards each and every single MNO only.

Don´t even try to hide behind bogus laws of some strange pathetic countries.
The MNO have every right to oversee DCG spending.
And it is my hope, that the MNO will soon vote to exercise what has in fact always been their just RIGHT.
Reply
0 points,2 months ago
Thanks Ash!
Reply
2 points,2 months ago
I've been told by Ernesto that DCG is in trouble below $60 Dash, I am inclined to vote yes on this proposal. If Dash pumps in the meantime, I might just abstain.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
more like Ernesto is in trouble.
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
DCG brought this lack in budget reserves on itself, when DCG kept delaying and delaying and delaying the delivery of Dash Platform on Dash Mainnet. Of course this will at some point conflict with DCG earlier statement, that DCG has enough reserves to deliver Dash Platform. Anyone could have seen this coming, i certainly have.

At this point Dash Platform is not even feature-complete or in testing phase on Testnet (which by the way DCG reserves 2 additional months for) or remotely in sync with the Dash Roadmap (where goalposts are silently moved forward with a few months). I am having some serious doubts that DCG can even deliver Dash Platform to Dash Mainnet this year (2023), having witnessed their constant delays.

So personally i stopped supporting DCG supplemental proposals some time ago and i have now extended that to DCG compensation proposals as well. To be clear : I will not vote NO on them, nor will i vote YES on them. At this point i just don't care about their proposals anymore.

Actions have consequences.
Failure to deliver Platform have consequences too.

With regards to the three Dash Incubator funding proposals : MNO's should evaluate those for work done and for future work (planned work). Also competition within the budget system is healthy.
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
Also with regards to Dash Incubator reserves :

'According to the above assumptions and calculations, by the end of the quarter we expect to have the following buffers:

1.3 month buffer for the Incubator overall (down from 2.7 months from last quarter)
1.2 month buffer for my strategic reserve (down from 2.2 months from last quarter)'

Source : https://www.dashcentral.org/p/dash-incubator-rion-2023-q3
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
One final point i would like to make : i think DCG has too high operational costs for the bear market it is in for many years now, and has failed to act appropriate on it.

If Dash Platform was released to Mainnet, then those DCG operational costs could have been brought down far more easily by DCG, as not all devs (and their salaries) would be needed. Now we are in the situation that Dash Platform is still not released and DCG considers current devs vital to deliver Dash Platform, which makes it very difficult for DCG to bring those operation costs down.

Having more funding go to DCG (either from taking it away from Dash Incubator or from extending the Dash budget) does not address the underlying problem for DCG : they need to bring their operational costs down considerably during times of a bear market (which unfortunetely means downsizing number of devs). They can increase this later again during times of a bull market.
Reply
-1 point,2 months ago
A man is drowning, do you save him and teach him to swim next time, or let him drown as 'punishment' for his stupidity? Remember, we are all in the ocean together, there is not a scenario where DCG sinks and we swim. Please support this proposal.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
If DCG needs more money otherwise layoffs would happen, why have they not made a supplemental ask themselves?
Reply
-1 point,2 months ago
They will in a few days, however, as mentioned in the proposal, they do not stand on the feet of other proposal owners, however, nothing is stopping us from doing that. Please consider supporting this proposal.
Reply
1 point,2 months ago
Dash Marketing Hub has been given Dash for promoting dashdirect. Dashdirect no longer exists. I find it curious you would pilfer from a DFO that (seemingly?) delivers while there is a much more obvious belt tightening measure
Reply
3 points,2 months ago
They were unaware of the DD closure prior to the public announcement when we all learned of it, are we to punish them for their lack of ESP?
Reply
-1 point,2 months ago
you are not stupid, so you must be a bad actor. That is the only explanation of how you could conclude this based on my comment.
Reply