Proposal “Dash_owned_ATM_Network“ (Closed)Back
| Title: | Dash owned ATM-Network (Europe): Phase 1 -- Decision Vote |
| Owner: | DASH_Embassy_DACH |
| One-time payment: | 5 DASH (148 USD) |
| Completed payments: | no payments occurred yet (1 month remaining) |
| Payment start/end: | 2018-09-17 / 2018-10-17 (added on 2018-09-18) |
| Final voting deadline: | in passed |
| Votes: | 352 Yes / 208 No / 42 Abstain |
Proposal description
Dash owned ATM-Network (Europe) - (Phase 1)
DECISION VOTE: Please just decide with this proposal, if we want to invest - YES or NO?
Detailed investment infos will be provided in Phase 3
A few weeks ago the Dash Embassy D-A-CH presented a Dash Infrastructure program to sustainably grow the Dash Ecosystem.
Link to the Dash Infrastructure Concept:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YbOJc0QxvTjCuD3a2o9RkEuSxr5kUh5L/view?usp=sharing
Here you can find the discussion on the forum:
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/how-to-sustainably-grow-dash%C2%B4s-ecosystem-dash-infrastructure-program.40256/
Now it is time to start the first effort and make it real!
In General: Why invest in crypto-related infrastructure running companies (Active Stakes)?
Compared to just spending money on infrastructure companies/projects or building them with treasury funds from scratch we believe there are some advantages by investing in already existing and running companies:
Starting CASE 1 NOW - Buying into an ATM Group:
We received an offer to buy one-time shares of a Crypto-ATM Group in Switzerland with the strategic orientation that they will found and run more ATM companies in several countries of Europe (2 are already established). We have the early bird chance to profit from the build up and own a “Dash ATM Network” that produces profits for us and we could have a say in the future development of a crucial Dash infrastructure in Europe.
This effort is NOT about running a business, its about BECOMING a shareholder in a business, which is already running and expanding with or without our participation to be clear.
Strongest Benefits:
Legal Benefits:
Future expansion plans and countries for 2018/2019 for now:
Voting Road Map and current proposal:
1. Phase 1 -- Decision Vote (September 2018): Current Proposal
First the masternodes have to decide if this effort brings value and future sustainable growth and strength for the Dash network in their eyes. This proposal in this voting cycle is exactly doing that. So please vote YES, if you support the general effort.
Voting Mode: Proposal needs to reach 10%
2. Phase 2 -- Stake Vote (October 2018):
Second if the masternodes due to the first voting cycle haved decided to go this way together with us, we will submit 3 proposals (for fee reimbursement: 15 DASH each because only one should pass) to vote on the suitable stake the masternodes want to buy. Dash will become a shareholder.
The Swiss ATM Group offered us to buy up to 15% of the company for 375.000 CHF. This is currently around 385k USD. (USD/CHF 0,9741)
1% costs around 25.666 USD.
Proposal 2.1: Buy-in 5% for 128.333 USD
Proposal 2.2: Buy-in 10% for 256.660 USD
Proposal 2.3: Buy-in 15% for 385.000 USD
For example: If we get a relatively stable Dash price of around 200 USD per Dash the three stake options would lead to a total Dash costs of:
Buy-in 5%: 641,67 Dash (Total)
Buy-in 10%: 1283,30 Dash (Total)
Buy-in 15%: 1925,00 Dash (Total)
Masternodes will have to choose one of these options in the second voting cycle (Oktober 2018) by uniting under one option.
Voting Mode: One Proposal needs to reach 10%
3. Phase 3 -- Funding Vote (November/December 2018):
Third after knowing which stake the masternodes prefer, we will submit a funding proposal split into three months to keep the stress on the treasury as low as possible.
The final proposal funding, depending on the chosen stake by the masternodes, will be according to the above numbers per month:
Buy-in 5%: 213,89 Dash (per month)
Buy-in 10%: 427,76 Dash (per month)
Buy-in 15%: 641,66 Dash (per month)
Consequently with the December/January payment cycle and the legal contract signed we will transfer the first funds to start the buy-in and secure the wanted stake.
Additional costs would be legal costs and also taxes. We will clarify that as soon as we have a decision for this roadmap.
After the termination of the investment (shareholding) there will be no recurring costs for the DAO/treasury, this should become a profit center.
Thanks for your support to build a sustainable Dash infrastructure!
In Dash we trust!
We are interested in your thoughts and we are thankful for your advice.
Your Dash Embassy D-A-CH Team
DECISION VOTE: Please just decide with this proposal, if we want to invest - YES or NO?
Detailed investment infos will be provided in Phase 3
A few weeks ago the Dash Embassy D-A-CH presented a Dash Infrastructure program to sustainably grow the Dash Ecosystem.
Link to the Dash Infrastructure Concept:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YbOJc0QxvTjCuD3a2o9RkEuSxr5kUh5L/view?usp=sharing
Here you can find the discussion on the forum:
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/how-to-sustainably-grow-dash%C2%B4s-ecosystem-dash-infrastructure-program.40256/
Now it is time to start the first effort and make it real!
In General: Why invest in crypto-related infrastructure running companies (Active Stakes)?
Compared to just spending money on infrastructure companies/projects or building them with treasury funds from scratch we believe there are some advantages by investing in already existing and running companies:
- We will save a lot of time and money by using existing companies and infrastructure instead of creating and running them ourselves.
- We will be able to take part in the strategic decision making and we can direct those companies to where Dash needs them to go from an network and investor perspective.
- We will no longer be a replaceable currency but a stakeholder in a running company. They work for US.
- We will benefit from all income streams generated by those companies and relieve pressure from the Dash treasury in the long run.
Starting CASE 1 NOW - Buying into an ATM Group:
We received an offer to buy one-time shares of a Crypto-ATM Group in Switzerland with the strategic orientation that they will found and run more ATM companies in several countries of Europe (2 are already established). We have the early bird chance to profit from the build up and own a “Dash ATM Network” that produces profits for us and we could have a say in the future development of a crucial Dash infrastructure in Europe.
This effort is NOT about running a business, its about BECOMING a shareholder in a business, which is already running and expanding with or without our participation to be clear.
Strongest Benefits:
- Massive ecosystem build up in synchronisation with the coming evolution releases during the next years.
- Increasing Dash’s visibility in public spaces in Europe, which are highly frequented.
- Standard ATM branding should be: 50% in Dash and 50% in BTC to use BTC´s high profile to get people in touch with the Dash brand.
- Direct say in an European ATM company to have it operate in favor of Dash
- Customers buying other cryptocurrencies via our ATMs actively sponsor the further strengthening of Dash. For example: If someone buys BTC at our ATMs we profit from the fees and we can build up more ATMs, stronger Brandings, etc.
- Indirectly already owning parts of the biggest Austrian ATM network.
Legal Benefits:
- The Crypto-ATM Group in Switzerland we will invest in is a holding structure and will found and run further ATM companies in other European countries to expand their ATM operations.
- The Dash stake will be directly legally owned by the Dash Embassy D-A-CH UG and should produce profits and therefore reduces the need for funding from the treasury in the long-run. This will transform the Dash Embassy away from a cost- to a profit center.
- MNOs will directly profit from these incomes because we will issue Dash Embassy D-A-CH UG shares to Dash Ventures in the future. MNOs will have a direct say via the legal Venture construct and can directly receive dividends.
- The ATM company has other solvent shareholders, who would provide further additional funding if issues arrive. No need of further Dash treasury funds for this investment.
Future expansion plans and countries for 2018/2019 for now:
- Austria, Switzerland, Germany, Spain, Liechtenstein
- Overall goal for 2019: up to 200 ATMs (constantly increasing during the following years)
- Currently only one competitor in Austria
Voting Road Map and current proposal:
1. Phase 1 -- Decision Vote (September 2018): Current Proposal
First the masternodes have to decide if this effort brings value and future sustainable growth and strength for the Dash network in their eyes. This proposal in this voting cycle is exactly doing that. So please vote YES, if you support the general effort.
Voting Mode: Proposal needs to reach 10%
2. Phase 2 -- Stake Vote (October 2018):
Second if the masternodes due to the first voting cycle haved decided to go this way together with us, we will submit 3 proposals (for fee reimbursement: 15 DASH each because only one should pass) to vote on the suitable stake the masternodes want to buy. Dash will become a shareholder.
The Swiss ATM Group offered us to buy up to 15% of the company for 375.000 CHF. This is currently around 385k USD. (USD/CHF 0,9741)
1% costs around 25.666 USD.
Proposal 2.1: Buy-in 5% for 128.333 USD
Proposal 2.2: Buy-in 10% for 256.660 USD
Proposal 2.3: Buy-in 15% for 385.000 USD
For example: If we get a relatively stable Dash price of around 200 USD per Dash the three stake options would lead to a total Dash costs of:
Buy-in 5%: 641,67 Dash (Total)
Buy-in 10%: 1283,30 Dash (Total)
Buy-in 15%: 1925,00 Dash (Total)
Masternodes will have to choose one of these options in the second voting cycle (Oktober 2018) by uniting under one option.
Voting Mode: One Proposal needs to reach 10%
3. Phase 3 -- Funding Vote (November/December 2018):
Third after knowing which stake the masternodes prefer, we will submit a funding proposal split into three months to keep the stress on the treasury as low as possible.
The final proposal funding, depending on the chosen stake by the masternodes, will be according to the above numbers per month:
Buy-in 5%: 213,89 Dash (per month)
Buy-in 10%: 427,76 Dash (per month)
Buy-in 15%: 641,66 Dash (per month)
Consequently with the December/January payment cycle and the legal contract signed we will transfer the first funds to start the buy-in and secure the wanted stake.
Additional costs would be legal costs and also taxes. We will clarify that as soon as we have a decision for this roadmap.
After the termination of the investment (shareholding) there will be no recurring costs for the DAO/treasury, this should become a profit center.
Thanks for your support to build a sustainable Dash infrastructure!
In Dash we trust!
We are interested in your thoughts and we are thankful for your advice.
Your Dash Embassy D-A-CH Team
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Discussion: Should we fund this proposal?
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I wouldn't go anywhere near investing in one of these ATM networks with my own money. I wouldn't have Dash do it either, and definitely not when we can barely afford to keep the lights on .
this is rule 101 of investing into business, regardless if there is a NDA this need to be know by the investors, if this is blocking the agreement we need a reliable 3th party "shark tank guy" that will make his or her assessment.
No the less here is my attempt:
From what understood they have 20 running machines ? What quality of machines are we talking about ? the range in price difference quite allot.
What other kind of inventory do they have ? I am not sure they need much of inventory other than cash for the 2way ATM's, which is actually no part of inventory.
There renting a places to store spare part and to do maintance
Right now if I am being generous the company is worth ~150.000 dollars. Sure the people and the expertise are worth something else well but we don't know much about them either.
The net ROI after taxes of this company is project to be at least 15% per year.
I am assuming the don't have a loan charged at 8% and the loan is less large than what the cost of the total inventory. Based on this numbers alone I would say should own at least 51% stake (majority stake) held by us or no deal.
*I apologize for putting this out there so late in the cycle.
This is again just the decision vote on this effort, if you want a Dash owned ATM-network or not. All details will be presented in Phase 3 with the final funding voting where you will need also get all informations.
A reliable 3rd party could be core for example.
They have 33 currently and this is going up fast as the have a full order book. Currently they get machines from different producers but General Bytes might have a big percentage of the running machines. The price difference between a 1-way and a 2-way is huge. I don´t know their inventory status but as you say they don´t need much of an inventory, but this is not the cost factor. Real costs are all the operations behind the business. These machines costs also money when they are running.
You have to sperate a valuation discussion of Kurant and the swiss ATM group. We want to buy-in the Group, which will build up more ATM companies over Europe soon. So you pay for a coming vision and expansion not for the current value whatever it maybe. You can see this is an ATM company accelerator with the awesome effect that the company owns all this accelerated companies. This is what we would get with a stake.
I cannot give any infos to liabilites of the company but there are pretty low. A 51% stake is a nice wish, we would like to get that but the associates of the company offered us up to 15%. Thats the reality.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
"This is again just the decision vote on this effort, if you want a Dash owned ATM-network or not. All details will be presented in Phase 3 with the final funding voting where you will need also get all information. "
Perhaps I am over read something but it was not clear to me, this should be made very clear in similar proposals.
Because that one if the deciding factors for a yes or no vote, I do hope and believe this is the case for the majority of MNO voters here.
But because this is question of intent than I'll change vote to yes. (a very yes at that)
Obviously it is not so clear for the MNOs. We will change the description. Thank you for the info. We tried to keep it as clear and simple as possible we believed.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
because there have been some discussions going on a short summary:
All details about the company/group will be provided after a positive decision on this proposal. Why? Because the owner won´t publish all details before there is a general commitment. We already have all the details, but we are not allowed to share them until the general decission, because we signed an NDA to get these information.
This proposal would not have been necesary if we had received a more reliable feedback on the forum.
I hope this helps.
#itsapleasure
@essra
sad to see the result near the end of the cycle. I thought it will pass with a huge support. I agree with @DeepBlue that we should have the main focus on the South African and third world market but this is a long therm project for Europe. We should start to sow our seeds now. I hope many MNO change their minds at the end. Thank you for this proposal. You have my full respect for quitting your jobs and work full time for DASH. Keep up the good work even if this proposal will fail.
Cheers
Meanwhile, Radio Shows and airplane decals are on track to pass.
Thanks for the support. That´s exactly the case. Efforts like this lifts Dash to a professional player sitting at the table and deciding where the crypto journey goes.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
2. Is the ATM business mentioned already operational? If yes, how profitable is it? Projected growth?
3. "MNOs will directly profit from these incomes because we will issue Dash Embassy D-A-CH UG shares to Dash Ventures in the future. MNOs will have a direct say via the legal Venture construct and can directly receive dividends. "
What do you mean by directly profiting? Will I receive my dividends as a MN or will Dash Ventures receive the dividends for the whole MN network? You are using the word "directly" here but it's not very clear what you mean by it.
4. "The Dash stake will be directly legally owned by the Dash Embassy D-A-CH UG and should produce profits and therefore reduces the need for funding from the treasury in the long-run. This will transform the Dash Embassy away from a cost- to a profit center."
If DACH will own the stake then the profits go to DACH. How much of it will be used for the operational costs for DACH and how much of it will reach the MNOs or Dash Ventures as net profit in the end?
Does the offer of the shares of the ATM business provide voting rights in the company? If yes, how will the DAO enforce the decision on it's percentage share? If DACH owns the share then you have the possibility of ignoring a DAO decision without any legal penalties.
We are the first open-source Dash company in Europe, rely on our reputation and are loyal to Dash. We quit our secure jobs and now work and live daily for Dash. You can be sure that we will never betray Dash, because we are passionate for this project, community and fight for it till the end. As soon as Dash Venture is founded we will give shares to it, you have to trust in us and our word like you have done till now.
Yes, the ATM biz is running since mid last year 2017. The company just around 1,5 years old and already profitable. So thats a very successful startup story i would say. Therefor the owners, the swiss ATM group, decided to found ATM corps all over Europe and search for a strategic crypto partner, which they have found in the Dash Embassy D-A-CH as legitimate Dash speaker.
Yes, as we understood the Dash Venture structure from Ryan Taylor, Dash Venture will provide profits even anonymously to the Masternodes. Thats a big great thing behind this and why we want to issue shares to it, because we will send the dividends to Dash Venture and its distributes it to you.
First we need to make the Dash Embassy D-A-CH fully funded by such efforts. As you currently can see in our embassy funding proposal it´s currently just around 50k euros because we have scaled down our operations because of the bear market. When such an ATM group of numerous ATM companies is fully running, the embassy can be easily funded even with more costs. The profits we earn over the costs we have, could be used for further investmens in other crypto infrastructure companies for Dash or distributed as dividends to Dash Venture and so directly to the Masternodes. To make such an mechanism happen, it will be needed to build an voting mechanism in Dash Venture probably.
When Dash ventures is an associate in the Dash Embassy D-A-CH it has the same rights like all the other associates. So we can not ignore it, because we have to act accordingly to German laws.
I hope this helps and makes it clearer.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
These kind of statements were also made by people that already took money from the DAO and disappeared. I am not saying that this will be the outcome with you guys. Having that possibility (of running away with funds or not following through with the next part of the deal) shut off somehow is the way to go.
''Yes, as we understood the Dash Venture structure from Ryan Taylor, Dash Venture will provide profits even anonymously to the Masternodes. Thats a big great thing behind this and why we want to issue shares to it, because we will send the dividends to Dash Venture and its distributes it to you.''
With all the information I heard coming from Ryan my understanding is that they cannot distribute profits to individual MNOs because the MNOs will need to identify themselves in order to receive them. So far I haven't seen any updates on this topic that say otherwise. Where did you get your information? Is it directly from Ryan and is it recent?
Also I think you forgot to answer to this question:
Does the offer of the shares of the ATM business provide voting rights in the company?
We have have founded the Dash Embassy D-A-CH to work for Dash and we are legally responsible for the company as founders. We will only shut down the company when the MNOs don´t trust us anymore and we get defunded, because this is for Dash not for us.
We had a call with Ryan a few weeks ago and for us it was clear that this distribution is possible, because of that we love the concept. There should be a legal possibility to pay dividends over the dash venture structure in our view.
Yes, with the shares we have voting rights and also the MNOs with dash ventures must have voting rights in the Dash Embassy D-A-CH UG. Everything else wouldn´t make sense.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
1) We are making the right choice with what ATM business to go with. We don't want the whole operation to go bust down the line.
2) We eliminate any steps that rely on trust on one party not upholding the deal.
As far as N.2 is concerned since the budget will be requested at a much later point I would like to see Dash Ventures running first, DACH shares being given to Dash Ventures and then the payout for the buy-in is given to the DACH entity that will be set up for the buy-in. This way the payout will be in control of the DAO and the DACH team. Is this the way you intended this procedure to happen? If yes you should state that more clearly in the proposal text.
we discussed Dash Ventures with Ryan in a Hangout and you are right, that MNOs might not receive dividens privately. In our opinion the ROI of whatever kind of Venture project should not be used for another income stream for MNOs, but for funding Dash related projects like proposals which reached 10% but are not funded due to a lack of funds or Dash Boost projects maybe. In our case we would use the ROI to setup more and more Dash ATMs and cover the costs of the Embassy to releave pressure from the treasury.
regarding 1) The ATM market is still growing, even the speed decreased a bit as you can can see here: https://coinatmradar.com/charts/#growth - we believe this decrease is connected to the current bear market and to the regions the current ATM businesses are based in. There are already enough ATMs in Austria for example, but countries like germany or spain promise a new wave of growth.
regarding 2) We have been working for the DAO almost a year now and we never ran away with any funds. We have this opportunity every month. For us there is no reason why you shouldn´t trust us. Of course we understand that this could be the case, but if so no proposal should receive any funds anymore.
We will not have the opportunity to buy shares of the company at a much later point for the price mentioned above, because the group we want to invest in will grow. With or without us. Imagine they will run 200 ATMs in one year instead of the ATMs they are running now. Will the price for an investment be still the same? We can´t wait for Dash Ventures, but we promise to handover shares of DACH when Ventures is running. It´s on you to decide what we should do.
Just one wish from our side: please decide if you want to invest in an ATM company or not. Both decisions will be ok for us, but please don´t make your decision relying on existing or not existing trust. You are trusting every proposal owner all the time. We have the trust of the community since January 2018. It´s a bit disappointing and it hurts if someone says we might not be trust worthy. We are the front row of this community and we are working hard to make Dash a successfull project. Please keep in mind. Our blood is blue.
#itsapleasure
Yes, I do. I will vote yes but the concerns I mentioned still remain.
essra
This proposal is not about the funding of this effort. It is about the general idea, please have this in mind. The funding proposal is in Phase 3 and will be made not before a stronger rise of the Dash price. Even because of tax questions its very likely, that we will do the funding proposal at earliest in December to get the first payment with the January 2019 cycle. Dash Venture should exist very soon and we should not leave such an unique opportunity unused.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
I usually support ATM proposals and would have support a specific one time (fair) deal, but I will vote no to this.
Please read the description above in full. This effort is not about running a business, its about becoming a shareholder in a business, which is already running and expanding with or without our participation. These are two very clear and different cases. There are no recurring costs after this investment. Compare it to a usual buying of shares in a stock company.
Best Regards
I hope this makes is clearer. Thanks.
- ATMs you are mentioning are only 1 way
There is already ATMs network (over 20ATMs) that are 2way (buy and sell) and they work ONLY with BTC and DASH ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esDWxRV8qRc ). You can check it out on their website: shitcoins.club (in "location" you can even check how much money is in each ATM).
Maybe better idea would be just to buy ATMs dirrectly. But we won't know that because we don't have any numbers :). Maybe buy 1 or 2 ATMs, check the ROI and maybe the DASH DAO would sponsor more if the ROI would be good enough.
if 15% are 375k CHF it´s easy to calculate the valuation of this company. This is the second funding round now because they will found more subsidiaries in other European companies very soon for expansion all over DACH and beyond.
So you are paying for a stake of shares of a ATM Group going into more European countries, which offer you several ROIs. ATMs are profitable and so the Group will make profits within 1-2 years depending on the crypto market price situation. Dash branding, Dash on the streets and so 24/7 Dash promotion. Just have in mind, we are not the only investor in this group, there are others and they also want to have their invested money back asap without harming the further expansion plans.
We received all details about the Group and there is no debt and no bank obligations.
Here you can see the running machines of the first subsidiarie:
https://coinatmradar.com/operator/107/kurant-bitcoin-atm-operator/
We thougt about buidling our own Dash Embassy D-A-CH ATM company, but the costs of buying an ATM, operating it and doing all the legal and tax stuff behind it is not worth the try. It´s way easier to be an investor and just raise your hand and kick the management out if they don´t do it right.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
Their assets and their revenue is important.
What is their webpage address that I could check out more details about them?
How many ATMs do they have right now?
"costs of buying an ATM, operating it and doing all the legal and tax stuff behind it is not worth the try." Apparently it is worth a try :). Buy some ATMs from shitcoins.club that are 2-way so you would already have a huge advantage of this Swiss Group.
You are right, but how do you value a ATM startup or a group which will found a network of ATM subsidiaries? There are no assets than the network potential, the team and staff behind it and the strategic partners you have. The revenue is very good as we also already mentioned, the company got founded 1 year ago and is already proftiable. We can not give you numbers because of the NDA we have signed. This is standard business practice as you know. Kurant is the current only partially owned subsidiary of them as we already mentioned above:
Here you can see the running machines of the first subsidiarie:
https://coinatmradar.com/operator/107/kurant-bitcoin-atm-operator/
A 2-way ATM costs from 7k up, so sorry we don´t have any funds for that and the Dash Embassy D-A-CH is not an ATM operating company. You underestimate the work load such an effort has. We are in tight contact to Kurant and they are just starting to upscale their team because they have more orders than they can handle. Very soon there will be founded a company in switzerland and Germany too, to start the operation there as we now.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
1. Their www?
2. What is their buisness model? They fund a new daughter company with someone in specific country that operates ATMs network?
3. They buy ATM from whom?
4. Their only partner is Kurant with 33 ATMs, right? Who else?
Any more details would be helpfull. Right now we don't know anything beside the fact that you want to buy part of them and they plan to operate 200ATM. I have big plans too, you know...
1. As we haven´t told you the name, we wil also not tell you the website in this Phase (not because of the NDA)
2. Founding subsidiaries in several european companies (as mentioned above) and run their own network in switzerland
3. the single subsidiaries will be able to make those decisions on their own. kurant e.g. is using GB at the moment.
4. Kurant was the pilot and is the only partner at the moment.
We will keep you updated about every new network partner and also provide information about the company and its founders during the next cycles. On this stage those information doesn´t really matter. This proposal is about a general decission.
Thank you
great to have your support. We also hope Dash rises more so we can request less Dash from the treasury. The current calculation in our roadmap was made with a 200 USD price, which will be adjusted to the actual price, when we will do the funding proposal.
Best regards
I have written an article at DASH forum explaining the reasoning behind this statement which you can find here:
https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/a-case-for-venezuela-why-focus-dash-promotion-in-venezuela-and-latin-america.40419/
How much capital will be requested for this proposal?
Can you provide data from the Austrian machines on how much profit is expected to be generated?
What expenditure would be required to run the ATMs i.e. emptying and transferring CASH.
How will you deposit the funds bearing in mind banks don't want to deal with cash generated from Crypto
Rental fees for location?
How much on legal fees to set this up in each country?
What about the changing legislation and additional legal fees to cover that?
How long after starting will be the estimated break even point?
If we had unlimited funds and the finances could be proven to provide a stable steady stream of income that would pay for itself within 2 years this might be worth considering. But in my opinion, at this particular moment in time, there are considerably better locations where our funds can be spent that would give DASH a considerably greater return by establishing DASH as a working currency rather than in countries that see it as a speculative investment.
“Deciding what not to do is just as important as deciding what to do” - Steve Jobs
Voting no. We need the funds elsewhere.
we understand your approach and are fans of the projects in South America and Africa ourselves, but Dash is a global project and even if we wouldn´t ask for a funding there propably won´t be enough proposals from those regions to use all the funds of the treasury. Maybe this proposal might even be an inspiration for the teams over there if it succeeds. Additionally we believe that prices will recover until the final funding proposal gets submitted.
We are in contact with the BizDev Team of Core and on the way to learn about the strategy and success in Venezuela. We want to adopt these learnings for Turkey and create a remittance market between D-A-CH and Turkey, because there are a lot turkish people living in our region. There for we wil need a reliable infrastructure that could be duplicated for Turkey, too.
Because we signed an NDA with the company we aren´t allowed to talk about all the detailed numbers, but we will try to answer your questions as precise as possible without getting in legal troubles. The profit is naturally variabel. The austrian ATM company was founded last year and got proftiable this year. Only a few start-ups are profitable during 1 year. All the costs, including insurances, buying the ATMs from the producers, setting them up, installing the exchange software, taking in and out the fiat money is done by the relevant subsidiary company of the group.
We as DAO and even as Dash Embassy D-A-CH have no issues with that. Thats normal daily business for an ATM company and usually this takes a major percentage of the fees they charge. For example of they charge 5%, there will be 3.5% costs at the end. So around 1.5% profit is for the company. As we know this a kind of standard in the industry and everything less is critical for the long term survival of the company.
The Swiss ATM Group want to expand its operations all over Europe, so the companies they are setting up in future have to be profitable as fast as possible to spur this ambitious expansion plans.
We hope this helps?
Best regards
#itsapleasure
I really have some doubts, whether the DAO could afford such a potential expensive endeavour with a tight budget as the current one.
Not to mention that it would need to be well worked out, both in legal and economical terms, so that it will likely be sustainable on the long-run, and preferably self-sufficient at some point in the future.
Otherwise there is a huge risk of sinking lots and lots of money into something temporary or very short-lived.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to postpone such a potentially expensive project for a later time, if and after the Dash price will eventually have recovered.
If funded through the DAO, the ATM fees should be AS LOW AS POSSIBLE, and it should be run as a NON-PROFIT company, whereby the fees will just be used to cover expenses, support and maintenance of the ATM network.
At this stage we just don't have the funds for it, and You should know this.
But the legal ramifications and regulatory complexities will probably be such a high burden, that we better leave this opportunity to a third-party for-profit company owning and operating such ATM themselves.
The DAO cannot do everything efficiently on its own, without potentially wasting lots and lots of money for something that may fail badly in the end.
we understand the tight budget situation well, because we had to scale down our operations (DACH) by 52%. The offer to buy in a potential future major player in Europe doesn´t last forever. We believe that prices will recover until the final funding proposal is needed and started with this proposal to have enough time to prepare everything in a proper way.
The ATM Group is a company from investors who want to earn profits, this won´t be non-profit and it wouldn´t make much sense in our opinion, because we want to use the ROI to grow the ecosystem for Dash and cover costs of the Embassy te releave preassure from the treasury. Of course we will try to keep fees as low as possible for Dash purchases, to offer Dash as the most attractive currency, but even with 15% we will not be able to turn around the whole comapny. We have to be realistic and work cooperative with the other investors in the group.
Legal and regulatory issues don´t catch us as investor, thats the daily business of the group and its subsidiary companies all over Europe. In this case the DAO has in fact just to decide if this is wanted, which stake you want and then approve the funding. The rest is done by the Embassy, our lawyers and the investors and owners of the swiss ATM Group.
This ATM network definitely will be build. We have the opportunity to be part of it or leave the opportunity of shaping the crypto-industry unused.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
Thank You for getting back at me.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but according the numbers given, this ATM company should be worth over $2.5M!
However, before the DAO should even considering buying a stake in such a company (and provided their business plan is sustainable and makes sense), it is my conviction that we need a whole lot more information about this ATM company.
If i understood it correctly, said ATM company is a private-equity company.
First of all, we need to be SURE that such a company is NOT just a void shell company, and really has some activa(assets) in its books and if it's hypothetical liquidation value is really in the range of $2.5M!
It would be of interested who made this value appraisal and by which means, and if it contains "high-valued" Intellectual Property or Trademarks, rather than physical, tangible assets.
Furthermore we would need to know it's outstanding debts and liabilities etc.
And of course, it is also of interest who is the current CEO and management (board of directors), and what are their past professional lifes, their professional experiences etc.
Last but not least, we would need to know also, who would own the remaining 85% of this ATM company, and which persons own a combined 51%+ stake, that have majority voting power over this ATM company.
Without the majority stakeholders & CEO / current management introducing themselves first to the DAO, it's really hard for us to assess such a potential investment, and especially the risks involved with it.
It would also be good to know the details of their incorporation, the applicable laws of jurisdiction and the relevant court in case of any disputes arising etc.
As any other investor also, we cannot make costly "good-feel" decisions with the lack of much information, we really cannot afford to buy the "cat in the bag" when the amount of investment would almost be $400k!
I believe, this all would be a minimal prerequisite for the MNO's to be able to evaluate the benefits and potential risks of such an endeavour and to make an informed decision.
And provided of course, that the business plan of said ATM company is sound, viable and feasable, and economically sustainable.
Thanks for Your attention.
Yes, this is the case. I understand your concerns and we have already checked this in the past months. We would never present you such a case without doing that. We have signed an NDA about all these details and can not give all informations completely open, but we will give as much as data as possible with the final funding proposal Phase 3 because you need to know as much as possible about the company at the final voting.
Currently this is the first phase, so MNO should think about the overall idea, if this is something they want for Dash. You can even dismiss this effort in the last Phase 3 if you are not sure this is a feasable business. You as MNOs have it in your hands.
Thank you for your questions.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
PS: we haven´t received a reliable feedback on the forum, this is why we choose this 3 Phase way in DGBB
1. The legal structure - Obviously the legal ownership of the entit(y/ies) involved will need to be sorted out before any serious funding is poured in to this. We have some assurances from the Embassy DACH team and ostensibly from Ryan Taylor, but we MNOs have to remain skeptical for the sake of the network until this is ironed out, especially when our *own* place in the DAO has not fully legally coalesced with the Trust and Dash Ventures.
2. ROI - A lot was said about ROI in the video, and hypothetically it's a great idea at least conceptually, but we'll need to eventually get some idea about what *kind* of ROI this project will bring and whether or not it will be "worth it" in terms of cost/benefit. Some projections--especially what would be entailed at the 5%/10%/15% stake levels and more thorough market analysis would definitely be needed, and also how much of that funding will ostensibly be diverted to fund the operations of Embassy DACH.
3. Management - If the DAO is going to collectively own a significant stake in a project of this magnitude, and this project will have other partners, we're going to need a reliable way of managing and communicating our managerial input to the other partners moving forward. Currently the DAO is more than a little cumbersome and sluggish and malnourished. Hopefully Nexus will help to streamline and tighten up some of our operations, but logistically I don't see us being able to be successful, invested partners without viable representatives to handle the day to day operations of our part of this venture, and that will entail a great deal of unprecedented (except perhaps in the case of DCG) trust, oversight, and vetting moving forward. To be fair, though, this is true of all DAO owned projects moving forward, so perhaps this will be a good test case and troubleshoot for that process.
4. Funding - Ideally this would be a self-sufficient project, but funds will still need to be allocated and ROI will need to be disbursed back to the DAO in some way. Ryan's discussed having the funds held by Dash Ventures being meted out to the network as payment for services, others have discussed possibly updating the protocol to allow deposits made to the treasury, others still have discussed using the funds to buy more Dash to be used in secondary treasury projects (Dash Boost, etc). This will need to be sorted out, of course.
There are likely other significant issues, but these are the ones that jump out to me at the moment.
thank you for your feedback. We´ll try to answer your questions as precise as possible.
1. The ATM group is a regular company based in switzerland. I´ts owning parts of one other ATM company at the moment. The Dash Embassy D-A-CH is a regular company based in germany. DACH would own shares of the ATM group based in switzerland. We will handover shares of Dash Embassy D-A-CH UG to Dash Ventures (or a similiar entity) as soon as it´s up and running. To be honest it´s a bit about trust, because we can´t hand over shares to DV at the moment and we understand that you are feeling uncomfortable because you don´t know about the position of MNOs in the DAO structure in general, but time is running and we shouldn´t wait for this. No one knows who long this process will take. We have a solid track record and we will not runaway with these shares. Our faces and the company are easy to find. One last thing: no one cared about giving GB a lot of money to integrate Dash without even offering shares and there have been a lot of compareable proposals in the past.
2. The funding of this proposal will only be used to buy shares. For our other operations we use our general proposal (https://www.dashcentral.org/p/DASH_EMBASSY_D-A-CH_Q3_18).
ROI: in the first 1-2 years most of the return will be used to setup more ATMs. First income might be generated late 2019 or during 2020. This money will be used to promote Dash in every way the MNOs decide through their vote as shareholders and in DGBB. Even if we get enough money out of this to act without a funding from the treasury, we will still need your permission to act as representatives of the network. We are sorry that we can´t answer the ROI question with specific numbers, but as there are only 50 ATMs running at the moment we can´t tell what the situation will be in 2 years it´s just not possible.
3. The management wouldn´t be different compared to the current situation. We act on your behalf (votes in DGBB) and represent your decissions in the ATM group. As soon as we are able to handover shares of the Embassy to the network you can also vote as a shareholder. We also hope that Nexus will help to make those decissions and votings more detailed.
4. As long as the network wants us to go on with our regular work (https://www.dashcentral.org/p/DASH_EMBASSY_D-A-CH_Q3_18) we can use this incomestream to pay for our expanses. As we are acting as a non-profit Dash representing company there won´t be any funds that need to be send to the network. In a situation in which we earn more money than we need (or you don´t want us to go on), I´m pretty sure that we´ll find a way to bring this money to Dash Boost or support 10% proposals without funding with donations. You will be in the position to decide this.
Please let us know if these answers helped and please post your "likely other significant issues". It´s the first time something like this happens and in our opinion we all (proposal owner and MNOs) need to cooperate to find a proper solution. Everything else would be a failure in the system. Please help us to make this happen.
Best regards
#itsapleasure
thank you for the kind words and your trust.
One short statement: we don´t feel like we are competing with Core. They focus on other markets and also other projects. Regarding BizDev and PR we are in continuous exchange to complete each others efforts and get more efficient in what we are doing on an ongoing base. Only because we are a DAO this doesn´t mean everyone should act completely autonomous. We believe the biggest challenge all proposals need to overcome is communication. We will only succeed if we are looking in the same direction and form a global alliance. Sometimes there is consensus sometimes there is not. In the last case it´s important to learn from each other and we all need to learn all the time.
Thank you for reading
#itsapleasure
This could be the first example of a DAO-owned business that returns profits to the network and I think DASH Embassy is a great organisation to be managing the proposal given their professionalism and track record.
YES from me.
I would probably vote for a 5% buy-in to keep the cost down and see how things go, since this is the first proposal of its kind that i'm aware of.
I'm told that we will have the ability to buy Dash from within various Dash wallet apps within a few months and possibly sooner (via an integration with Uphold?). If that's the case, is there any need for an ATM network selling Dash, since people will have an easy way to acquire it already?
Regarding your first comment: thats absolutely right and exactly what we want to achieve. The usage of a Fiat-ATM is known to Europeans and so every common man and women is able to use it and just needs the smartphone and the Dash wallet of his/her choice. Yes and Dash would be the first cryptocurrency and blockchain network, which is a shareholder of an important future crypto-infrastructure company, not the other way around.
We want to grow the Dash Ecosystem as sustainable, useful and cost-effective as possible, as we all know Dash don´t grow on trees and someday we all need to get some money out of our treasury funds investments to keep up our work. The stake votings will be up next month if this proposal passes.
Regarding your second comment: we understand your doubts. In the end it´s about distribution. Regular people will not get in contact with those apps. No matter if there is a Fiat Gateway integrated or not. Of course there are some banking systems and financial services which grow without ATMs in the streets (N26 for example) but they are a minority and as they are dealing with Fiat money they don´t have the same challenge as Dash when it comes to their trustlevel and image. We believe ATMs are one of many pillars on the way to mass adoption. Imagine apple would close all their stores. Would their products be as successfull as they are? It´s speculation, but we doubt it. Distribution is key for every well known product in the world and ATMs are one important channel that is used by people who don´t want to be identified and people who are not educated about crypto. Additionally there are the trust and branding arguments.
We think this is a great way to increase awareness, bring Dash to the masses and releave preasure from the treasury on the long run. Just imagine there would be 50 Embassies - the treasury would not be able to handle that. It won´t be the last proposal of this kind. We´ll submit similiar ones in future (PoS, PSP, Exchange), because we want to cover and shape almost every distribution channel in future.
In the end you need to decide wether this fits your personal strategy or not. We would be happy to get your support and are willing to answer all your questions. If you don´t agreee on our strategy maybe you can share your thoughts about what would benefit Dash most at the moment. We´d be happy to discuss.
Best Regards
#itsapleasure
We understand your approach and we agree that ATMs alone will not win the war. Of course we need Fiat gateways integrated in mobile wallets. We also need online exchanges (ex and dex) and maybe we will also need OTC in physical outlets. When we look at the current market (not only crypto) some persons still like physical gateways to the products and services they want to use. That´s why we believe ATMs are important at the moment and will be in future. People in Europe use cash and propably always will. ATMs are the savest gateway for this at the moment.
We hope this proposal is an inspiration for other community members to start a proposal for buying shares of an exchange (e.g.) and all the other parts needed for a sustainable Dash infrastructure. The important thing in our opinion is that the return should be used to promote Dash on the long run. If no one starts a proposal for an exchange (e.g.) we will do it after the ATM proposal.
Everything time after time and step by step.
Please let us know your thoughts about the general idea.
Thanks for the support. Yes it´s time to bring Dash to the main streets of Europe and own thes companies no just throw money at them.
Best Regards
#itsapleasure
This is an excellent question. Basically we need an exchange, which does the crypto-service and a BaFin licensed German bank behind it as Fiat-Gateway. Because of this need we are in talks with German Banks and several potential exchange candidates to exactly forge this important partnership. The Swiss ATM Group we want to invest in is working on that issue with us together.
Best Regards
#itsapleasure
The fees are currently at 5%. At the moment there are only one-ways running, but they told us that 2-way ATMs are the future, so they are already planning to launch 2-ways very soon.
Best Regards
#itsapleasure
Please look here under the ATM industry statistics, these currently show 8.35% is the average fee. With 5% we would we very kind and giving competitors few chances to act against us. Nevertheless this is a company wide decision of the Group suitable to the relevant market. We will absolutely try to get the Dash fees down as low as possible because people should prefer buying Dash there and get the lowest fees via our ATM network.
Best Regards
#itsapleasure
Why do people agree to such high fees? Does it allow them to remain anonymous? Are they not aware they are being ripped off? Do they just try it once as novelty?
I think it would be better if the ATMs had competitive fees so they could have much more use than just from people who are willing to be ripped off.
Oh ups sorry, here is the promised link: https://coinatmradar.com/charts/
This maybe one reason, because under 250 € you don´t need KYC registration. We believe the major reason is the human behaviour. It´s just very fast and comfortable to use an ATM nearby like everybody is using cigarette machines just around the corner even if they don´t have your favourite brands.
On the other side, we just talked to an industry spokesperson yesterday and there are lots of costs for the ATM operator. They need to buy the ATM from the producer, give the location operator a fee, pay insurances and money transporting companies, do regular maintenance. At the end with a 5% fee they have a good margin, but only the mass and a working eco-system like Dash has plays out in the long run. Merchants having a Dash POS where people can pay their goods with Dash will lead to cycle like they are common in the Fiat world. Getting some Dash on the local ATM and then buying daily stuff.
Best Regards
#itsapleasure
something like that has to be run as a private company but not over the DAO / Core
my 2 duffs
The Swiss ATM Group we buy in is a privately held company of investors and then also the Dash Embassy D-A-CH UG. We will also be one investor in this crypto-focused group. The particular responsibilites lie in the management of the Group. We as a shareholder can always speak out, if something doesn´t go the way we like it.
There are no further costs or more investment needs for Dash in the future to make it running, we want to get profits out of it. The entrepreneurs behind it are financial strong and will always help the company out if liquidity issues arrive. The treasury doesn´t need to be asked for further funding again in the future like in other projects. The founding of further ATM companies in Europe will be funded trough the profits and so expand the network over time.
We talked to Ryan Tayler about the Dash Venture structure and as soon as its ready we will give a stake to it, so the masternodes own via the Dash Embassy D-A-CH UG this Swiss ATM Group. At the end a very elegant legal structure.
I hope your concerns are now gone and you vote yes for this roadmap tungfa.
Best Regards
#itsapleasure
Not to mention the fact that charging 5% fees on an atm is apprehensible since most eu exchanges do it for far less.
Furthermore dash ventures has not been setup and also i would urge core to create an agreement with dach embassy that gives dash ventures preferred liquidation at x1.5
I understand your concern, but as explained in the video atms are doing much more than just exchanging money. they deliver strong branding and trust.
regarding dash ventures: yes, that's why we said we will connect the embassy to it when possible. I contacted ryan and hope he will drop a line regarding that topic.
thank you,
essra
Thank you for the warning. The issues at Cointed are well-known to the Austrian public and to us, but this had nothing to do with their ATM business. We met the guys months ago and we instantly knew there is something wrong, as they told us they couldn´t integrate Dash because our blockchain is so complicated. The founders of the company were scamming people with a bitcoin pyramide-sceme.
In contrast our partners here at Kurant built up a well-working ATM network with strong entrepreneurs behind them. We know them personally and built up trust over the last months and exactly this is not a waste of Dash. Nevertheless Austria is just one market, don´t forget all the other countries of Europe, especially the sleeping giant Germany. There is not a single ATM.
This is the kind of Dash owned investment which didn´t happen before. The times of throwing money at companies not owning them are over now.
I hope you support us building a sustainable Dash infrastructure
Best Regards
#itsapleasure
Infrastructure is vital to every monetary system. If we really want to bring Dash to the masses, we need an easy to access way to reacht that. With our own Dash ATM network we bring our currency visible to the main streets of Europe. People then will see our Brand and recognize slowly that there is really a monetary revolution going on and that is going to become part of their daily lives. This gets us out of speculation to real daily usage and then we can talk about onchain scaling ;-)
Best Regards
#itsapleasure
Yes, this is only restricted by the software running on it. At the moment there is only the exchange software on them. Expanding the ATMs into an open marketplace is another next step. We already had brainstorming sessions with the other owners of the Group related to such ideas.
Best Regards
#itsapleasure