Welcome!

Watch Crowdnode's recent appearance on Joel's youtube channel.
https://youtu.be/DdV8qI6reVs

Let the small investors vote, yes x16!

Strong yes from me, if DCG won't deliver trustless MN shares to the network, we need somebody trustworthy to do so.

Statement from DIF Supervisors:

First of all, we are happy to see this proposal come to the Treasury, for all the reasons Mark and other commenters have already mentioned, what CrowdNode is proposing would be an extremely valuable addition to the Dash ecosystem. We also recognise CrowdNode's long history and track record of serving the Dash community, and wish to thank them for their continued service and commitment to Dash.

We can confirm that CrowdNode has been in contact with us and we have discussed their plans, explored the opportunity and considered several possible options for funding. In the end, we agreed that proposing to the DAO directly while having the DIF assume ownership of an equity stake would be the best way forward. CrowdNode asked us to draft an agreement for a conditional transfer of equity and the ball is clearly in our court. We will deliver the agreement as soon as possible.

Some commenters have asked why we haven't invested directly..

At the DIF, we see it as our mission to strengthen the Dash ecosystem and to enable more use cases for Dash, and this proposal certainly ticks that box (!), but we are also committed to growing the value of the funds entrusted to us as much as possible and ideally independently from the Dash price. Although it’s widely acknowledged that CrowdNode provides a much-needed service, several supervisors felt that as a for-profit business it doesn't have the same high-growth prospects and scaling potential as some other opportunities on our table currently. We have limited resources as we continue to build our balance sheet so we have to prioritise direct investment activity into our “conviction buys”.

We all agree on the value this service will bring to the Dash ecosystem and believe this opportunity deserves serious consideration by the network, and we’re pleased to see CrowdNode put it to the Dash community directly. If this proposal gets approved, we will not run competing proposals for DIF funding in parallel in future months if the treasury budget looks tight, i.e. we will make sure there is enough room for both in each funding cycle.

- DIF Supervisors

That is quite preposterous, outrageous even, that the DIF play both sides.

"it doesn't have the same high-growth prospects and scaling potential as some other opportunities" yet "would be an extremely valuable addition to the Dash ecosystem".

Thanks for that, we'll just pay out for sloppy seconds? It's just ridiculous. If the DIF is supposedly making good decisions then it's rejection of funding this is all we need to know.

No, you're not "just paying out for sloppy seconds". Something that is a valuable service to the Dash network is not necessarily automatically also a high-growth scalable business, which is what we're looking for. There is no conflict in being one, but not the other.

Trying to find a balance between a strategic investment / grant for the benefit of the Dash network that would more naturally sit with the DAO and a financial investment for maximum ROI that would more naturally sit with the DIF, we think this hybrid is a good solution.

Sven as DIF supervisor

It doesn't have to be purely profit on either side. How I wish there was an Ethical DIF that didn't work against it's users by associating with chain analysis companies / data brokers.

I don't have anything negative to say about CrowdNode. It's a personal enterprise and I see this as something they would do naturally anyway, knowing full well it would benefit both dash users and themselves. What benefits would magically manifest upon funding that would otherwise not? - for if it would not manifest, can we say it has commercial value or not?

The DAO should be exploring and nurturing fresh young talent. But instead it chooses to slap the back of old friends. I suppose there is something to be said about loyalty.

It's not all we need to know, did you know that The DIF did not pay the CrayPay DashDirect upgrade to enable one-time VISA/Mastercard payments? The network however funded it just the same, and by God they should fund this too.

Oh I see, one rule for the DIF and another for us minions? Got it.

False dichotomy.

I remember once a project called "Dash Nexus" that was desperately wanted by MNOs. Paid for and running for a long time yet y'all stayed here at Dash Central, effectively forcing the hand of people, such as myself, to use this lacking and antiquated site.

As usual, decisions of self-interest. For if this proposal was driven by user demand, if there was an actual business case for this, then why would it need additional funding beyond the buckets of money already handed out every single month to DCG AND the DIF? You want to print new dash into existence to prove how good it already is?

If this was fresh new talent needing a helping hand / kick start, my decision would be very different, but it's not.

For the record I was against NEXUS because I felt it didn't solve a pressing need. Regardless, we can't compare CN to nexus, CN was self started without any DAO support and ran throughout the ups and downs of DASH, these are true believers in the coin, now they want to expand with our help, we should help them. Nexus was always for profit and when the DAO stopped funding them they allowed the site to atrophy and now it is quite useless.

I agree with you, I think the people at CrowdNode are true dash believers. Loyalty doesn't mean we should gift them a free masternode. True believes will do this work anyway, and that's exactly my point.

How do you think other projects survive when there is zero treasury? Do you want a system where the only work done is paid work? Or a system where everyone feels they are doing their bit, paid or otherwise? I would argue the latter is a more powerful decentralized system, and a honest and healthy system. You're not depriving them of anything, it's not slavery, Indeed, not being paid is more power to them, their freedom of choice, without prejudice, persists. Not being paid tells the outside world a very different story about dedication and decentralization.

I remember https://www.livingroomofsatoshi.com they got Dash Masternode worth of budget from DAO.
They don't even support Dash now.
There were many other proposals which got so much of DAO funds!
CrowdNode supports Dash community for quite a while already and never had DAO request.
If they want to bring a solid solution for all the people who can't afford a full MN I'm full on it!
MNOs can fund all "run for money" proposals who don't even report back anymore or who run away with the pot and never shown back.
These guys are well known members, they're going to build something we've been waiting for years!
If DAO doesn't fund this kind of proposal I'm not sure what DAO should fund then.

This is all true and I really have nothing bad to say about them. MNOs want to pay them as a gesture of goodwill, I get that. And I'm sure they will have their way.

Who knows, maybe one day someone like CrowdNode will replace many of DCG's functions. That might be a very positive outcome.

I love what you guys are doing and hope Crowdnode grows and prospers. I'd be happy for the Dash network to support what the Dash network gains from.

But I also have a few questions. You guys are a commercial business, you want to make a profit. Right now with 25 MNs, it doesn't make that much money. Easy to figure that out. How many MNs would you need to run to break even with all running cost? When do you expect that to happen so you're self-sustained?

You're asking for 15,000 EUR, so, what, ~20k USD per month. Your proposal is very vague on how this money is being used. Are these the running expenses you expect going forward? Any one-time investments in infrastructure and such?

You do mention in your video salaries as the main use. You're saying you're a 4-man army, but there will be only one full-time position. Your team members have their LinkedIn profile linked on your About page. Looks like they all have other jobs. Can you talk a bit more about what "contributing part-time" actually means? How much can you lean on them to pitch in? 1 hr/mth? 10 hrs/week? And will they be paid a fix salary or by the hour?

You mention offering trusted Thorchain liquidity pools. Isn't Thor trustless and requires no minimum? Why would someone use a trusted service instead and pay fees for it?

You used to publish regular transparency reports at https://crowdnode.io/news/ Now the last one is from Q1 2020. What happened?

Good evening MasterNoodle,

Several good questions.

Breakeven with running cost incl. salaries like throughout the year where (we hope) this proposal is funded, will be around 175 masternodes @150EUR/Dash.
This is a lot, and I doubt that the trees will grow to the sky in just one year, which is why will we might need a follow up to grow further.

The running expenses will be OPEX, very few (if any) one time investments.
The monthly part-time contribtion has been 2-4 days each per month for Peter, Thomas and Peter. Periodicly more, periodily less. And we count hours.
We have had a talk, not quantified, but agreeing on that I will be able to lean more on them in the coming year.

As for the liquidity pools on ThorChain, this would be a feature to please those only looking for a higher APY, disregarding trustless and other great things.
The bigger the liquidity pool the less risk of slipage, therefore also theoritically a higher profitability from the pool - which incentivices to be a part of the biggest pool.
In other words, if CrowdNode operates the biggest liquidity pool for Dash/Rune, then we would be able to offer the best return.
I imagine that we will let the members manage their 'portfolio' on the portal. Distribute your holdings in Dash Masternodes, either flex or locked in trustless, or ThorChain LPs, or other options that might present themself more tangible throughout the year.

Agreed, I miss those reports too. Thomas spend a lot of time on them. We want them back, but more automated and realtime!

/Andreas

Are you going to commit to the quarterly deliverables you showed in your video at 3:50? What if you don't? Will the DIF still get that share if you don't deliver and follow-up funding proposals fail?

Indeed, we will commit.
The scenarios must be aligned in the paperwork with DIF, so it is fair for the network, and I do expect to see some wording on failure to deliver vs. consequence (upside for the network) vs. funding from the treasury.

One more thing, you mention in your video how your trustless solution requires a lot of signing and the more participants there are, the harder it gets. Is there a limit to it? I mean could you still fill a MN with thousands of people staking 0.x Dash each? If not, how many people could this accommodate at most? Or the other way around, would there still be a minimum stake? How much?

With what is presently possible in DASH (using core) a setting up a trustless masternode (multisig framework) every participant to do a total of (N+1) signatures, while the backend must present and handle a total of N*(N+1) signatures, since there are N users times (N+1) sigs/user.

Thus, as an example, if the minimum trustless stake is 100 DASH, worst case is 10 participants. This would require to provide 11 signatures (i.e. 22 copy-paste operations with no errors), while the platform would manage 110 signatures to set up such a masternode.

Clearly, this does not scale well.

On the other hand, if you're only staking 5 DASH, a trustless multisig setup might be a bit of an overkill. :-)

/Peter CrowdNode

Thanks, so are you hinting that 100 Dash would be about the minimum?

And what about all my other questions? Let me ask more bluntly: Are we paying ~USD 20,000/month basically for one full-time salary?

One must love volatility, lol, actually it is 15k.

There's a reason why dash is rank #73. You keep inflating your currency by introducing new dash into the system when it is completely unnecessary. You're desperately spending dash without feeling immediate personal consequence. Where is Ryan when you need him, he completely understands this.

A few influential subjects - both Mark and the DIF - have given their glowing endorsement. Yet in the DIF own words, "it doesn't have the same high-growth prospects and scaling potential as some other opportunities". That right there is all you need to know. You're inflating dash supply both via the DIF *AND* through this proposal.

If the government spends tax payers money to steal productivity and jobs from the private sector, do you say it is good or bad? This is exactly the same setup here. Either CrowdNode is developing a viable and profitable service, or not? You don't need to fund them. I have nothing against them being entrepreneurial, I just don't see why our "tax" should be spent on enterprises that have already proved themselves viable. But the Samaritan in you is going to give them a helping hand and in the process send dash beyond rank 100.

Hog wash! The reason the DIF wasn't interested in directly investing is because crowdnode (CN) charge 15% paid in DASH for the service, when you do the math, you will see that for less than $300 they are not profitable, they need a much higher price to be profitable, and worse during our bear markets the business was actually losing money due to paying for hosting fees from 15% of a lousy DASH price, hence the equity cannot be expected to 10x since the DIF doesn't expect the DASH price to 10x, nor do I.

That said, for the network, funding CN does make sense, because it draws more value into masternodes and pulls some value of the centralised exchanges like Binance which runs a staggering 270 masternodes and has over 500k DASH in cold storage, this is a colossal risk for DASH and CN helps de-risk that, worse, if you don your tin foil hat for a moment, what is stopping the exchanges trading that DASH short against us? Nothing, so I would much rather see that DASH find its way to CN than CZ's Binance, voting YES, here, suck it!

> if you don your tin foil hat for a moment, what is stopping the exchanges trading that DASH short against us?

You don't need a tinfoil hat. That's exactly what they're doing. The only way how they can offer higher payouts than MNs.

You make my point very clear, thank you. Vote Yes for a business losing money, nice one.

Yes, knob head, they are losing money for our benefit! DASH is a better coin thanks to their amazing service and will be an even better one if this proposal passes.

Really glad to see this, Andreas and the CrowdNode Team, appreciate the video you made! I'm especially looking forward to the trustless MN shares feature even though I understand you have to build more of the foundation first.

You mentioned DIF and Dash Trust Protector voting features as well in the video, which would be great. Where does that fall in your milestones?

You can already vote for DIF and Trust Protectors - we just want to automate that part as well :-)
I falls in between the major milestones (I hope) or in Q4 2022.

This is a strong yes from me. CN has been providing a valuable service for several years now and have built up their trust in the community. I've been using their service since they launched and have never had an issue. Also, trustless shares and fractional voting are desperately needed to bring in fresh blood and new ideas. I think it would be foolish to not support this proposal.

Btw, you're running Windows servers? Microsoft and security is an oxymoron.

It's true and .NET they are total noobs, hopefully they port to Linux and open programming languages

We have outsourced our masternode hosting between two providers - it took to much time away from features and support to maintain node.
Originally we ran the nodes, and we did so on Windows to diversify, which could be considered a good point in a decentralized setup. Though risk is minimal, imagine a bug in ubuntu that would crash nodes running on ubuntu, but the Windows nodes would still run and keep the network alive.

Not sure which bug in Ubuntu you're thinking of, I've ran headless debian servers for years with zero down time. I thought you mentioned something about .net so I was curious about the platform. It's probably not a deal breaker but I'm not particularly inspired either.

Hey everyone! I just wanted to write a message to show my full support for this proposal.

Masternodes, please do take the time to watch the video in the proposal description so you get the full scope of what is being presented here.

I personally can't wait to "slide to stake" in the Dash mobile wallet app. One-click staking for the win! Plus development work towards trustless staking! YES PLEASE!

I'd love to see Crowdnode's API being utilized by popular multi-coin wallets as well to help onboard and drive new users to Dash via a staking rewards offering.

I want to give my sincere thanks to Andreas and Peter at Crowdnode for taking action and making my wish a reality. A lot of work has gone into this proposal and I truly believe it has the potential to make a positive difference to Dash.

It's been an absolute pleasure working with both Crowdnode and DCG's Brian Foster and Hash Engineering to push things forward. I've been very impressed with Brian's professionalism in particular.

If we understand the needs of the users, we can truly deliver a solution that offers them much more functionality in addition to payments and remittances. This is why I so strongly feel that a user-friendly staking option in the app is the missing element in our strategy and core product offering.

Right now DCG remains committed to growing adoption in Latam.

Latam, Southeast Asia Dash Dash Users:
Many have no computer to sign up on a traditional website.
Only have very small amounts of Dash.
Local banking institutions have less competitive interest rates.
Require an improved store of value in countries with hyperinflation such as Venezuela.

US, Europe, the World Dash Users:
Need easy-to-use one-click staking in the same app for 'non-techies with fractional voting rights.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm very excited about Dashpay usernames, contact lists, and DApp functionality. But I'd like to remind everyone of our project origins when Evan tried to get his Mom to use Darkcoin back in the day and ran into usability issues, which ultimately led to many adopting the term and slogan for Dash as "crypto your grandma could use". Evan wasn't only referring to the crypto payments aspect, it was targeting the whole user experience removing all areas of friction.

To achieve global mainstream adoption, Dash needs to become the Apple of cryptocurrency.

Evan understood from the very start that the user interface and presentation layer is the priority.

Having the ability to easily save and earn Dash rewards via an intuitive one-click staking option in the official mobile app with Dash block-reward push notifications is a very much needed solution and long overdue.

My personal Dash mobile wallet app usage will increase due to this functionality as I'll be able to hold and stake a small amount Dash on my mobile device and spend the rewards on everyday purchases like coffee, groceries, lunch, etc. easily via the DashDirect app offering. I do strongly feel we need this functionality in order to stay up to date with the competition and demands of the current market.

If we allow anyone with 1 Dash upwards to easily stake Dash (save and earn) it will allow for more financial inclusion appealing to a much larger global audience. Then users can really unbank themselves and spend the rewards all from within one app.

While cryptocurrency prices are so volatile and not stable. We need to offer users much more utility than purely focusing on the payments aspect alone. The reality is the current crypto market is primarily driven by speculation and greed.

Investors at this stage aren't buying crypto with fiat to just turn around and spend it straight away.

Dash had a first-mover advantage as being the first DAO, but sadly we've fallen behind other projects that have followed the masternode financially incentivized two-tier network model. We need to change that.

It's time to reclaim the throne and give users what they truly want. Block-rewards and profit. The more users earn, the more likely they are to spend Dash on goods and services than the Dash they purchased with fiat. We just need to make sure all users in the Dash community have the ability to stake not just MN's.

User-friendly sustainable staking and spending will keep users locked in and at the same time grow our ecosystem. The "Stake and spend" block rewards approach has more advantages overall than the "spend and replace" methodology use-case.

Buy, save and spend Dash. Take back control and become your own bank.

That's the strategy. That's our core mission. To provide greater financial freedom by delivering financial solutions which are usable for all.

This proposal helps Dash take another step forward to achieving our mission objective. Therefore it's a big YES from me with two very enthusiastic thumbs up!

I share your enthusiasm about enabling earning options for more Dash users. I agree it's needed.

But let's not forget that turning MN payouts into a staking solution may not be that golden ticket. Block rewards get reduced every year and the more MNs run, the lower the payout for each. At some point the APY will get so low that Dash is still not competitive with real staking coins or DeFi tokens.

But it's better than nothing. So I'd still want Crowdnode to make it happen.

Exactly this. Dash could never possibly compete on APY, nor should it. Dash Direct is the winning ticket because it gives real and immediate benefits NOW instead of waiting X days to earn the same discount. The more you encourage savings, the more it takes from spending. It's difficult to find the correct balance but I can say with certainty, I earn more elsewhere and then buy dash, instead of trying to earn dash directly via masternodes.

Dash's main focus must be on earning it through actual work, not just passive income. Passive income does not grow vegetables, pay bakers, or produce cars.

I fucking love hard deliverables. One thing I want to point out to my fellow masternodes is this: If we want the 12% stake in CrowdNode we have to fund this team for an entire year of development.

I personally do not have a problem with that since their ask is very reasonable, they offer hard deliverables in certain time periods and they have a good track record of serving users.

I do have one clarifying though, is there any type of legal agreement between Crownode and the DIF or are we just taking your word that you will transfer equity after 12 voting cycles?

Hi name3,
We asked DIF last week to send a whitelabelled version of a previos equity handover to them - I'm sure they are working on it.

This is exactly the reason to vote No. No guarantees, only promises of what might be. Trust without accountability. In contrast, look how engaged and motivated Craypay is in comparisons to all these freebie grants. If CrowdNode was that good an investment then we can get a deal done now, not empty promises.

Well, Any proposal that comes from a company and that in its offer proposes to exchange shares for DIF for treasury funds: It is THE normal.

Now we must negotiate regarding the present and future funds.

In this case you offer 12% of the company for:
12 installments 85 dash for period ($ 15000 + -) = $ 180000

I propose that you upload to 15% the assignment of shares to DIF.

Why? Easy, because in a future for Crownode would be easier you have the Dash community support for:
Financial and Recommendation about your services for Staking of other Cryptos.

But it must be 15%, we are negotiating.

Full supp from my end guys.

Where is your MNO badge? TheRudeDashMan will be irate !

... well I can't be responsible for his emotions ;)

Now would be a good time for the DIF to reveal why it hasn't already invested in CrowdNode, any sticking points might be rather pertinent. I'm also concerned why this talk of the DIF / investment rounds are deferred for later when it could be initiated NOW. Once again, grants for future promises, which is exactly the problem the DIF fixes.

On the face of it I have to vote No. This seems like a private enterprise claiming to have one foot in and one foot out. From this development list, I see nothing that CrowdNode could and should want to build themselves. There is value added both sides and the treasury already funds the DCG side of such integration, so why should the treasury also be funding the private enterprise side? In all this time, has CrowdNode been so unprofitable not to afford this? How do I know this renewed thirst for growth will be different to the past?

I'm also curious why the business development and marketing side of this proposal is so loose / under specified.

Dear GrandMasterDash,

The long version of the two videos do address some of your valid points.
We will leave the DIF questions for DIF to answer. That is the most credible approach.
DIF has been really helpful and quick (still are), but we only engaged with them a few weeks back - and we are promising features soon, so we need to put the pedal to the metal.

"has CrowdNode been so unprofitable not to afford this?" is a rhetorical question.
To add perspective, another MNO asked me Yesterday how we survived 35$, and my answer was:
"We survived $35 because we all chipped in privately - believing that it would be good in the long run.
But it has been demotivating to spent a lot of time and bleed money as well.
Hopefully that won’t happen again."

As for your marketing question - I would love for us to do more on marketing and we will!
But features are our primary focus, as we are best at delivering features - just look at our profiles. 3 engineers and a master in BA :-)
And we do promise to make features first and foremost, but also marketing as much as time allows for it, but we also hope that others will help to market Dash - because these features will be developed to help the Dash eco-system.
This proposal makes sense because DIF gets an equity - we are not looking for a freebie grant.

Br. Andreas

This is amazing. Hell, yes!

It would be handy to have some kind of textual breakdown of this proposal under the proposal description for archiving and historical reference (in case crowdnode.io/ gets updated in the future and we lose the links to the videos).

@qwizzie - Textual breakdown and video has been added to the description :-)

Cheers,
Thomas from CrowdNode

This is a very well put together budget proposal (budget proposal 1 of 4), that look to be adding value to both the Dash network and to CrowdNode.

I think CrowdNode shared masternodes (and voting) option can coexist with Dash Core Group's plan to develop masternode shares in Q2-2022 and seeing CrowdNode's roadmap, i see a lot of opportunity to strenghten and diversify the future use of staking through Dash Core mobile wallets.

Also i would not like to leave masternode shares just in the hands of Dash Core Group, having CrowdNode looking into it and integrate it as well seems like a good idea.

Basically the Dash community would have two roads towards trustless masternode shares from within the Dash Core mobile wallets.

In terms of trustless staking, then we are working on a solution where it is possible to use multi-sig in order to ensure that one will always be able to withdraw ones balance in a presigned transaction.
It is difficult to deliver a good and user-friendly experience, however, we believe that we can deliver a solution that is as good as possible from a user perspective that it will attract significant larger deposits. This will be the first step and it is possible with the current dash technology.

Dash Core Group has been talking about delivering trustless masternode shares. We don't know how that will work or when it will be available. We have heard that it might be in Q3 2022. When it is available, we will try to be the first ones to incorporate some kind of functionality in this regard. Depending on the solution we can hopefully add extra value such as voting, pooling of dash balances etc.

/Thomas, CrowdNode

Yeah and DCG is the road to nowhere and Crowdnode is the road to getting things done. It's a Yes from me !

Video descriptions of what we are up to:

TLDW (short) version: https://youtu.be/whrJHybqSpk
More details: https://youtu.be/jJcML_3N1ME