Welcome!

any updates to the chat??

Obrigado ~!

Congratulations for passing this proposal. Please, I beg you, talk to one of our lawyers in the core team and see if you can't come up with rules for those doing the chatting to follow. I think having a policy is a start in giving us protection. Recording conversations would probably be smart (not to identify, but to show what was said by our people) It's all txt, right? I just think we shouldn't make a mistake here, so please, at least talk to fernando :)

Hey TanteStefana, thank you for reminding me to do this. Yes of course, this is very important, there are several things I will have to coordinate with the Dash Core team to make this proposal a reality. Nonetheless, the legal aspect is one of the most important ones. :)

Hi, this is Andy Freer, lead dev of Evo team which is also the team designing dash.org v2 launching 5th Feb and v3 launching with Evolution later this year.

Just to be clear on what this proposal means:

1. It plans to insert a Chat box on the dash.org homepage

2. It will be ran by a 3rd party - user 'Roberto_Azar' who first appeared on the internet 1 week ago on Dash Forum and has zero history on anything related to Dash, crypto, or anything else that points to it being from a real person

3. That user will appoint Agents who then get access to any Dash.org visitor who uses the chat box to chat with them

Why I do not support this proposal:

1. Dash.org is our main presence on the internet. Everything we say there is officially sanctioned and reviewed and covered by our terms and conditions, and only team members with long histories of contribution get to publish content there.

2. This Chat box will enable 3rd parties to essentially publish (user generated) content on Dash.org to users that the team can't control, but is done with an "official" approval, i.e. all 'agents' will essentially be official Dash representatives, except we have no idea who they are or who they will be

3. This opens up a huge range of potential issues if something goes wrong. We are not a centralized organization or have the resources to hire fulltime employees who's job depends on how they conduct themselves in a chat box - if a malicious agent slipped through (or if the anonymous proposal owner is malicious) and someone got scammed or just acted badly, this could cause a lot of negative PR / damage to the brand, as it would have happened through the official site

4. The proposal owner is extremely evasive when I have asked him/her questions, initially suggesting no one would control the account, that there is no difference in trust between he/she with a 1 week internet history and e.g. Juan Galt, well known journalist raising the proposal, forcing users to submit their email initially on google docs to read the proposal, that there is not difference between x, y, z, all obviously wrong, and when questioned by Fernando started talking about how the core team could be fired and have the customer service taken over. All of this makes me a little suspicious to be honest. If this anonymous user had bad intentions, giving them access to the dash.org user base directly might be a bad idea too. If they don't, how come they won't reveal anything about themselves or history past 1 week and we have never seen them before?

5. Even if the core-team had full control of the chat box, prevented anonymous users with no history from chatting with our visitors, we're then left with the problem that this is totally centralized, unscalable, uneconomical, and to be honest slightly scammy, with the main goal to 'talk user through buying on poloniex', and is really not something I think a decentralized crypto currency like Dash should be strong-armed into adding onto the homepage

That's it. I don't usually comment on proposals, but I have a lot of experience with websites and can see a lot of problems coming out of this not to mention the bad image of trying to hard-sell users from our official homepage just in a chat box who could then potentially be stuck or lose their coins etc as normally they would have been filtered out or forced through a process where they had to learn the basics and not be sent straight to poloniex.

Thanks

Andy

Hello Andy. I will try to be brief in answering your concerns regarding this project since I've already answered them in dash.org forum.

1. The only reason why I proposed this project is because I feel it will have a positive impact in the Dash community. The reason why I suggested the live chat to be in the dash.org website is because that is where dash users, new users and potential users turn to to learn about Dash. In reality Dash Chat could be placed anywhere and it doesn't necessarily have to be in dash.org
I only suggested it because of the amount of targeted Dash traffic it receives.

2. I explained multiple times that I do not have to run this project, in fact I'd be honored to just participate in it under the leadership of someone from the Dash Core Team or anyone else that is trusted by the Dash community.
The biggest evidence I can give you to prove this is that in the Dash Chat volunteer application there is a vacant position that someone can apply to and that is: ''Dash Chat Manager''.

3. The user that will appoint agents is the Dash Chat Manager, which is still a vacant position.

4. Everything that an agent says on Dash Chat is recorded in the reports section of livechatinc where the rest of the Dash Chat members can have access to and review. This is to prevent any agent from saying or doing something that breaks a policy.

5. We do have an idea of who the Dash Chat members would be. This is answered in the second most FAQ of this proposal. Double check it above please.

6. I didn't say that there is no difference between me and Juan Galt, I gave a hypothetical example in the forum. What I said was: ''Secondly, I don't see any problem with having a one week old account of dash.org/forum and being an agent. Having a one week old account of dash.org/forum doesn't necessarily mean that I am one week old to the crypto world or to Dash. The reason why I believe this isn't a problem at all is because all the work performed by this guy whose account is one week old will be completely transparent and verifiable by other members of Dash Chat that will have very old dash.org/forum accounts.
Picture the following hypothetical scenario: ' Juan Galt gets hired to deliver a conference about Dash Chat but then someone spots out that his dash.org/forum account is only 1 month old!
So.... Should he (or anyone else for that matter) not participate in this Dash conference that aims to promote Dash just because his dash.org/forum account is a week/month old?
It makes no sense, his work at the conference will completely transparent and verifiable by everyone there. Similarly, my work will be completely transparent and 100% verifiable by everyone in Dash Chat, especially by some of the well-known, trusted members of the community who just so happen to also be Dash Chat members.''

And here is the link to the original statement that I made: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/pre-proposal-dash-chat.12619/page-3#post-111174

7. I never forced anyone to submit their email address to view the documentation I provided. That is most definitely not true. Anyone can access the documentation I provided on Google Drive without even needing to own an email address. Anyone may open the in a private browser where they are not logged in. And even if they are logged in, I still do not have access to anyone's email address.

8. You're misquoting me on the statement about decentralized governance. You chose to say a part of what I said without quoting everything I said to make me sound like the villain. What I actually said was: ''One of the aspects of Dash that I find really beautiful is that it is decentralized and it is known that even the Dash Core Team if found to be inefficient, the MasterNode owners can vote yes to another team of developers. Don't get me wrong, I really think the current team is great and I really appreciate all the work that is being done, I am especially looking forward to the 12.1 update. However, my point is that if the proposal proves to be a superior solution to the current model of Dash promotion/customer support, then why not give it a try?''

I don't think there is nothing wrong in the statement I made. I remember a while back listening to Evan Duffield speak about Dash and he said something along those lines regarding the decentralized governance system of Dash. I clearly did not intend it to be misinterpreted and I did say that I appreciate all the work that the Dash Core Team is doing and I think it is really great. In fact I voted yes with my masternodes to their recurring monthly proposal to the treasury.

Here is the link to the original statement I made: https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-dash-chat.12672/#post-111132

Let's go back to the fundamentals... What is a decentralized governance? Ask yourself that.

In fact all I'm doing here is proposing a model that I personally think is great for promoting Dash, new user acquisition, business adoption and social media marketing.

9. I have not evaded any of your questions. Perhaps I didn't understand something you said and that's why I didn't answer it correctly. But probably that wasn't the case. I am here to be 100% transparent and answer all your questions.

10. The main goal of Dash Chat is not to ''talk user through buying on poloniex'', rather it is to promote Dash 24/7 and to provide customer support to basic technical questions. I don't see anything ''scammy'' in that.

Thank you for sharing your concerns, I'm glad that you had them so I could answer them for anyone else that was probably thinking the same but was too shy to ask.

If you have more questions, feel free to ask.

Just to say that someone I do know approached me and said they had some lengthy chats with the proposal owner helping him get setup with Dash, and believes he is a genuine user who wants to improve Dash.

That makes me feel less worried that this proposal has bad intentions, which is the first thing I would think with the noob account and access to dash.org visitors.

This doesn't mean I am endorsing this or think a chat box promoting Dash is a good idea on the official site or this doesn't open attack vectors for malicious agents to slip through and the other things I said.

I am less worried about this user's intentions though now I have some indication it is a real person who is interested in Dash which is why I felt the need to speak out.

One thing about decentralized governance, i think it's really important to have some info on proposers are. The reason is then they are putting there reputation on the line for the proposal. If we allow accounts with no history access to the core / official parts of Dash, they have nothing to lose, and there is no barrier to filter out the trolls / scammers / opportunists that might try to use those channels to their advantage. It looks like that's not the case here, but I would urge MN owners, always look for users reputation / history. If they don't provide it, and it's a proposal doing something key to Dash, don't support it until the users can show they are genuine or have a reputation on the line for it.

thanks

Andy

I voted yes thank you for offering to do this!

Thanks Jerry!

Hi Robert

Ok can you confirm that this is what you are saying now then

1. The Owner account on LiveChat would not be you but be a known/trusted person in the community or core team before this went live

2. It would not have to be on dash.org

Thanks

Andy

Hello Andy

This is really getting really repetitive. I will answer your question one last time.

1. I do not want to be the account owner for livechat.
I've clearly said it here (and in other places of the forum): https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-dash-chat.12672/#post-111148

2. It does not have to be on dash.org, however, this current proposal is for the livechat to be integrated to dash.org

If you have a better suggestion of where it could be placed then let me know, I'm open to new ideas. Also, livechat doesn't only have to be integrated in just one place, it can be integrated in multiple sites with the same account and the same agents operating that livechat account.

1. "I've clearly said it here (and in other places of the forum): https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-dash-chat.12672/#post-111148"

Yep - so maybe add it to the actual proposal? And move the proposal somewhere permanent, not a google dock with private revision history you can change any time?

2. "It does not have to be on dash.org, however, this current proposal is for the livechat to be integrated to dash.org" - So then it does have to be on dash.org, unless you change the proposal or make a new one, which you are clearly not going to do. Another example of evasion from an account created a week ago just to raise this proposal - what is the point in saying it does not have to be in dash.org when you are at the same time saying it does? I hope you are not this slippery with the Dash.org visitors you would have access to if this passes.

Lastly... " I never forced anyone to submit their email address to view the documentation I provided. That is most definitely not true."

This is just plainly false. Yesterday, both google docs required a request permission from you on google docs to access the doc, which revealed my email address. I said that in the post I made at the time they were private. Today, they are public, meaning you would have had to remove those permissions in google docs settings.

Great proposal and you have my support!

I'm really looking forward to working with you and with other trusted members of the Dash community if this proposal gets approved! =)

I truly believe that this kind of project can make a difference, especially in user acquisition, new user support, business adoption...etc

When I visit a website and the first thing that pops up is a chat window with some robot asking me if I want help - I just want to barf. So fake and insincere. But, I am a grumpy old geezer. That is not for me personally, but maybe for others its good. How do people feel about chat services on websites in general?

I'm with you there, I immediately close the chat window and sometimes the site, but I'm grumpy and old too :)

Well, we won't have robots working on the chat. We will work with people of the Dash community :)

I think Live Chat is a great idea! I mentioned this proposal to Evan Duffield to get his feedback and he said, quote: '' Hello Roberto, thanks so much for messaging me. Your proposal is quite in line with where I see the project going and wouldn't mind something like this being implemented into our site. However, I don't really like the idea of trying to convert people directly, but someone that's available to answer questions about Dash and cryptographic currency, would be an amazing thing. In fact I have wanted to implement this type of service into evolution directly... so this is a good milestone toward the ultimate vision I think.''

I myself think it will be a great opportunity to acquire new users, to make Dash feel more user friendly by having a live agent that people can chat with if they need support in something related to Dash or to just ask general questions.

Would those who work on the chat really know anything about Dash?

We will start with a few volunteers such as:

1) Fible1 - Ticketing System
2) Splawik21 - Live Chat Agent
3) mranderson010
4) oaxaca

The rest of volunteers will be acquired through this Google Forms application: https://goo.gl/forms/owHJRfpW1OS0YerM2

We will do our best to evaluate all the candidates and test their knowledge of Dash. Also, the chat transcripts will be read and reviewed. It's part of the Quality Assurance tasks, did you have a chance to read up on that yet?

A question for the legal people here. If a person loses their money while working with a Dash Chat representative, will Dash be responsible? How do we ensure this is a "safe" service to offer from OUR point of view?

Other than that ^^^ I love the idea. But I want to be able to cover the network and Foundation's @ss.

You make a good point TanteStefana. Would just getting the client to read and accept a disclaimer before chat begins be enough?

That's a very good question. We might have to do some legal research regarding this. I guess what you mean is that the person loses money because Dash's price goes down.

I would suggest that this point is made clear with every new user we gain. We clearly explain to them that the price of Dash may go up or down and that we do not offer financial consultations. We are just a chat to explain what Dash is and answer basic technical questions related to Dash.

Furthermore, it is against policy for an agent to make a transaction with a visitor of Dash Chat. And under no circumstances can an agent request the private keys of a visitor's Dash wallet.

However, we might have to look into this issue further. I will update you on this once I've spoken to a legal consultant.

did you get any feedback on the legal issues tante raised ?

No, I'm worried that while someone is helping a person, the "customer" does something stupid and loses their coins. Then they blame the service.

But can't this happen with any other service? For example, someone buys a bicycle from amazon and then it gets stolen...

I went on fiverr and got in contact with an attorney that does small gigs, I am waiting for his reply. But in his first message, he said that this issue can be avoided with a disclaimer in the terms of service section at the bottom of the page.

I think this will be needed as part of Dash Evolution. If people have someone to chat with, I think Dash will be more appealing. Dash Chat would need to be expanded when the time comes, but this seems like a good starting point.

I think the same, especially if Dash Evolution intends to be like PayPal. Having live agents will add a higher level of legitimacy and professionalism to Dash Evolution.